SEPTA might get multi-level railroad coaches

Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby sammy2009 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:41 am

It makes so much so sense to go with a proven product. If anything SEPTA should not have used the NJT MLVs in pics and specs of what they was getting. That on another hand was in so many ways we want we want. They could have said on the lines of a "MLV Vehicle". I guess we shall really find out today. It's Thursday and the board has to vote on whom. I already knew Rotem was not getting it. I just felt it.
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Re: SEPTA might get multi-level railroad coaches

Postby glennk419 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:06 pm

Bringing an old thread back to life.

Does anyone know how the SEPTA board vote went this afternoon? I'm really hoping that they had a stroke of sanity and opted for BBD over the 'no US experience' CRRC.
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Re: SEPTA might get multi-level railroad coaches

Postby Quinn » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:59 pm

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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby deandremouse » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:18 pm

SEPTA officials, though, said this time around they won’t be the first buyer from a new manufacturer, as they were with Hyundai Rotem. Boston’s MBTA has $842 million in contracts with CRRC MA for 404 cars, and they believe the kinks of a first-time operation learning American practices will happen with Boston’s contract, not Philadelphia’


Wow, someone at SEPTA is highly optimistic. Also seems kind of unreasonable to say such a thing, wish bad upon another it may happen to you. We shall see in 2019... we shall see.
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby Backshophoss » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:10 pm

You have to figure on CRRC will find away to clone the BBD MLV II design,then twist/tweak the design to make SEPTA happy
so they(CRRC) can claim it's their's. :wink: :P
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby NorthPennLimited » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:50 am

deandremouse wrote:
SEPTA officials, though, said this time around they won’t be the first buyer from a new manufacturer, as they were with Hyundai Rotem. Boston’s MBTA has $842 million in contracts with CRRC MA for 404 cars, and they believe the kinks of a first-time operation learning American practices will happen with Boston’s contract, not Philadelphia’


Wow, someone at SEPTA is highly optimistic. Also seems kind of unreasonable to say such a thing, wish bad upon another it may happen to you. We shall see in 2019... we shall see.


Comparing the Boston order (subway cars) to the SEPTA order (heavy rail at higher speed) is an apples to oranges comparison. Hopefully, they also undergo rigorous testing for crash worthiness at Pueblo Colorado before they carry the riding public.

I wonder if these new cars will be compatible to couple to the existing push-pull fleet coaches and cab cars and have all the door controls and train line commands work properly. Seems that was a design issue with the Silverliner 5 and Silverliner 4 couplers. They don't work together.
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Re: SEPTA might get multi-level railroad coaches

Postby Literalman » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:41 pm

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein


By coincidence, I was reading the Quote Investigator blog (http://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/03/23/same/) earlier today, and a post this week addressed that very quotation. It didn't come from Einstein, but from Narcotics Anonymous. I think that makes it even more pointed when applied to Septa.
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby Suburban Station » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:55 pm

Backshophoss wrote:You have to figure on CRRC will find away to clone the BBD MLV II design,then twist/tweak the design to make SEPTA happy
so they(CRRC) can claim it's their's. :wink: :P

that's easy, a couple of cracks here and there and presto, SEPTA material
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby glennk419 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:45 am

Suburban Station wrote:
Backshophoss wrote:You have to figure on CRRC will find away to clone the BBD MLV II design,then twist/tweak the design to make SEPTA happy
so they(CRRC) can claim it's their's. :wink: :P

that's easy, a couple of cracks here and there and presto, SEPTA material


Yep, then break out the duct tape and Durobond.
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Re: Bi-level passenger cars

Postby Silverliner II » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:46 pm

deathtopumpkins wrote:
The EGE wrote:CRRC is the 2015 merger of CNR and CSR - each of which were some of the largest rolling stock manufacturers in the world. They've built over 700 EMUs for Argentina in recent years, and all appearances and rumors thus far hold that they're doing a substantially better job with the MBTA heavy rail stock than Rotem did with any of their US orders.


What rumors would those be? They haven't even finished building the factory in Springfield yet!


And Singapore is returning new metro cars to them due to various defects with the cars ranging from structural to software issues.
All we can do is hope for the best.... that this does not turn out to be another Rotem. At least with luck, there won't be many of the same language barriers; most of the CRRC people are fluent in English.

glennk419 wrote:I was really hoping that Bombardier would have gotten the contract. I've ridden the NJT multilevels many times and think that they are well built, comfortable and efficient. I believe they also tested on SEPTA, at least through the tunnels, to check for clearances and they are obviously a tried and proven product.

They did the clearance measurements manually, for lack of a better phrase. They never borrowed a car from NJ Transit to physically run over the system.

Meanwhile, CRRC now has standing orders for Boston (Red and Orange Line car replacements), Chicago (Budd 2601-3200 & M-K 3201-3456 series car replacements), and cars for Los Angeles (Red/Purple Line expansion).
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Re: SEPTA might get multi-level railroad coaches

Postby Backshophoss » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:01 pm

CRRC intends to build a factory in the LA Metroplex for the purple line cars.
Since Septa did their "Clearance test" with a tape measure,watch the prototype car "touch" the ceiling
in the tunnel! :wink:
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Re: SEPTA might get multi-level railroad coaches

Postby zebrasepta » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:45 pm

Backshophoss wrote:CRRC intends to build a factory in the LA Metroplex for the purple line cars.
Since Septa did their "Clearance test" with a tape measure,watch the prototype car "touch" the ceiling
in the tunnel! :wink:

I can imagine the railcars taking down the catenary in the Center City tunnels and SEPTA either has to do a emergency construction in the tunnels or something else...
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Re: SEPTA might get multi-level railroad coaches

Postby add2718 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:21 am

From the Philly.com article posted above:

CRRC MA has contracts to build rail cars in Boston, Chicago, and Los Angeles, but its plant in Springfield, Mass., won’t be completed until October and it has yet to construct a single car. It scored “acceptable” on a technical rating, middling performance on a five-tiered rating system, but the price, $34 million less than the nearest competitor, the Canadian company Bombardier, was impossible to resist, SEPTA officials said.


Why am I not surprised?
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Re: SEPTA might get multi-level railroad coaches

Postby glennk419 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:07 pm

I just read NJT's Fleet Strategy report. The current MDBF ( mean distance between failures ) for the BBD multilevels is greater than 450,000 miles. That's ACTUAL miles, not a target. Does anyone know what the projected target is for the "acceptable" CRRC cars?
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Re: SEPTA might get multi-level railroad coaches

Postby zebrasepta » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:00 pm

glennk419 wrote:I just read NJT's Fleet Strategy report. The current MDBF ( mean distance between failures ) for the BBD multilevels is greater than 450,000 miles. That's ACTUAL miles, not a target. Does anyone know what the projected target is for the "acceptable" CRRC cars?

That's pretty hard to determine as they have not built a FRA standard railcar as of yet
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