fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

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fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby dash7 » Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:18 pm

hi, i dont know how accurate this is but i was told on another forum and i dont know if the source of my information is plausable but i was told the early russian diesels namely 2te10 types used fm opposed piston FM 38D-10 (or copies)if this is true i would love to know!,thanks in advanced,derek :-D
Last edited by dash7 on Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Typewriters » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:11 pm

It's true; in fact a large number of Western things were copied, either legally or illegally (ie with proper rights or without) in Communist nations in the post-war period.

I have no exact data on how they got the F-M engine; however, we do know that they got a number of Baldwin road units and copied the engines. The design then went to Czechoslovakia where it was copied, modified and produced further in a few different designs. Look here:

http://www.geocities.com/wbd641/CKDPrahaBaldwin.html

..and you'll see a page on my site, written for European fans, detailing this phenomenon. I imagine that the F-M engine history in the USSR / Eastern Bloc isn't much different!

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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby dash7 » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:46 pm

wow thats unbelievable!,i suppose the greatest form of flattery is imitation,i mean, i suppose there is not much US builders can do if their products are being cloned in eastern block countries especially during the cold war. thanks heaps for your reply,cheers, derek
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Allen Hazen » Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:46 pm

I knew the Russians had locomotives with O.P. engines, didn't know that these engines were copies of FM. The Energomachexport page in "Jane's World Railways<' 1986-87 edition (sorry, it's all I have! ... it's the volume where I found that the Soviet diesel engine industry was still advertising its Alco 539 clone that late) mentions an O.P. design with 207mm (8.15 in) bore and 254 mm (10 inch) stroke in four versions:
6D100 (8 cylinders, 2000hp at 850rpm)
2D100 (10 cylinders, 2000hp at 850rpm)
10D100 (10 cylinders, 3000 hp at 850rpm)
9D100-F (12 cylinders, 4000 hp at 900rpm)

No drawings. No information as to aspiration (4000hp from 12 cylinders is comparable to the turbocharged FM engines used in stationary power plant service in the ??1980s??). Energomachexport doesn't SAY these are derived from the FM design, but that isn't surprising: they don't SAY that their D50 engine (12.5in bore and 13in stroke, 4-cycle, 6 cylinder inline, 1000hp at 740rpm) is an Alco 539, either! But I think they are almost certainly copies of some Western design: Russia never used English measures, and 254 millimeters stroke is too much of a coincidence if the design DIDN'T come from a country that used inches.

Entry on Soviet Railway system says the 2D100 engine was used on locomotives of classes TE-2 (intr. 1953) and TE-3 (intr. 1956) and the 10D100 on locomotives of classes TE-10 (intr. 1958), TEP-10 (intr. 1960), 2TE-10L (intr. 1961) and 2TE-10V (intr. 1975).
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby FCP503 » Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:37 am

Funny, I was just doing some research on the 2TE10's as well. I too was curious if the engines were in fact copies of the F-M. However coming up with substantive information on Russian engines can be pretty hard to come by.

I believe that these engines were made in the Bryansk plant, but I am not 100% sure of that.

I DO know that the 2TE10's have a 10cyl OP engine, called the 10D100. This engine has twin turbos located on the opposite end of the engine from the blowers. There are two pipes, one on each side, to feed the output from the turbo compressors to the blowers.

What lead me to take such notice of these locos is their tendency to spew VAST quantities of smoke. (enough to put a steam loco to shame!!) They have a very interesting engines note as well. It has a very two stroke sound to it, but not like an F-M at all.

There are some quite excellent videos on the web of these locos in action. When I am a little more awake I will post the link for them.

The Kolomna two stroke engine used in locos like the M62 series is a more conventional "V" design.
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby FCP503 » Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:12 pm

The Trainsim.ru website has a lot of videos of ТЭ10 series locos in action (and many others!) http://trainsim.ru/download/113/ Many of these videos depict the ТЭ10 series locos tendency to produce huge quantities of smoke!

Here is a pic of the 10Д100 engine http://www.tmholding.ru/main/catalog/pr ... 50/657/659

The website discussing the connection of CKD Praha engines with the Baldwin/De La Verne design is very interesting. This type of engine is used in the ЧМЭ3 series of locos. (among other things)

One could be forgiven in thinking that a lot of these design simularities were just coincidence, just different designers arriving at simular conclusions for simular reasons. The F-M shares conceptual simularities with the the Junkers Jumo and Napier Deltic designs after all. But as Allen has mentioned the dimension being the same as the engine designs that were copied is kind of a smoking gun that these are direct copies!

Amazing that engines designs that were seen as "unsuccessfull" in US locomotive use were/are so prolific in Russia!
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Allen Hazen » Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:29 am

The "Jane's" entry gives Karkhov and Voroshilovgrad as builders of the "mechanical parts) of the TE-10 series locomotives, but whether this includes the diesel engines I don't know. I ***may*** be able to dig up a bit more information; will post if I succeed.
---
If maintained by a shop that new what it was dealing with (i.e. one where the the shop personnel didn't just read the EMD service manual and try to treat everything else the same way!), the Fairbanks-Morse diesel engine, in its post-1950 versions, was actually fairly successful in locomotive use: the biggest hassle in maintaining them was the need to remove the upper crankshaft before you could do anything with the cylinders, and FM, by metallurgical changes in the bearings, made it unnecessary to do this except at long intervals. (This from a "Trains" article by Aldag, some years ago.) ... Russian metallurgical engineering should have about on a par with American, so if they had started with a WW II-era FM engine (something else to look into: did the Russian navy get anything with FM engines under lend-lease?), they could have developed an improved version in parallel with what FM did in the U.S.
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Allen Hazen » Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:41 am

I found a WWWeb page:
http://www.freewebs.com/ludmilla/geschi ... chniek.htm
(It is in Dutch: I found it by Googling "2D100 diesel engine" where it was on the second page of hits, and Google offered a (less than idiomatic, but who are we to complain) English translation.)
The Russian engine is a derivative of the Fairbanks Morse design: the page claims it was built under license, which, if true, is surprising given the relations between the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. at the time. Perhaps the Russians negotiated a license at the end of WW II, in the brief period before the Cold War set in (the period in which, to cite another railroad example, GE built the "Little Joe" electric locomotives for the Soviet railways)?
There are mysteries wrapped in this enigma!
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby FCP503 » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:02 am

I found it interesting that the Ludmillas have a main alternator (not generator) already in 1966. That would be the same year as EMD started with the 40 series.

I also found it mind blowing that the DR was not provided with German language manuals for the Ludmillas! I can't imagine trying to work on a loco of that complexity level with a manual written in a language you can't understand!

I would also be very interested to learn the story behind Kolomna to switching to four stroke engines designs.
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby dash7 » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:17 am

thanks alot guys for your replies and thanks for those links awesome!!!!,CHEERS DEREK :-D
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More history

Postby Allen Hazen » Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:56 am

I've tried to find out more about the Soviet use of what seems to be the Fairbanks-Morse engine from my university library. Not much help, and some things just get more mysterious!
--
One thing I found was a 1957 pamphlet (64pp) on "Transport Developement and Locomotive Technology in the Soviet Union," by James H. Blackman, published by the University of South Carolina (Bureau of Business and Economic Research, School of Business Administration). No technical details on the locomotives, but an interesting sidelight on the economics of dieselization: it was estimated that either dieselization or electrification could about DOUBLE the capacity of an existing Soviet rail line. I suppose the idea is that signalling and siding spacing, etc, limited the NUMBER of trains that could be put through in a day, and that multi-unit diesels could double the SIZE of an individual freight train over what the steam locomotives then in use could handle.
--
More to the point, J.N. Westwood has written two books on Russian railroads (as well as other books on other Russian topics). One is a general "History of Russian Railways" (Allen & Unwin, 1962), which doesn't help on our question. The other is "Soviet Locomotive Technology During Industrialization, 1928-1952." This has lots in it, much of it sad: much of the design effort in the steam era went into locomotives that were theoretically very efficient but too complicated to be maintainable in practice. ... Markovich, one of the designers of the legendary AA20 (the 4-14-4 steam locomotive) was accused of Trotskyism and sent to work in a locomotive depot in the Urals after it failed. ... Soviet railroads were world-pioneers in dieselization... but the pre-WW II designs were clunky and seem to have had no influence on postwar designs, which were inspired by American practice (and in particular by the Alco RSD-1)! There was pre-war technology transfer: Russia acquired a few electric locomotives from GE (which apparently formed a basis from which significant later Russian electric locomotive designs evolved), and also a handful 2-10-4 steam locomotives from Alco and 2-10-2 from Baldwin, whose detail design had an influence on the main Soviet late heavy freight steam design, the FD type 2-10-2, which in turn influenced the Chinese....
The TE-3 locomotive we are interested in was introduced at the very end of the period covered by the book. (There is a 1956 photo of an erecting hall at the Voroshilovgrad works with TE-3 under construction at one end and LV steamers (a lighter 2-10-2 design than the FD) being finished at the other!)

On the internal anatomy of the TE-3, Westwood says:
"It employed opposed-piston diesels (said to be derived from American Fairbanks-Morse engines used on small craft received by the Red Navy during the war)."

Which, I am afraid, is the nearest thing to "documentation" I've found on how the F-M technology got transferred to the USSR. Note that Westwood is not a naval historian, so his use of the term "small craft" is perhaps loose. The two best-known United States Navy applications of F-M engines during WW II were on submarines and destroyer escorts, and no vessels of these types were supplied to the Red Navy under Lend Lease. On the other hand, three American-built icebreakers (not exactly "small craft" at 289 feet long!) were lent to the Russians in the early 1940s (returned to the U.S. about 1950). These were of what seems to be called the "Burton Island" class (why I don't know: Burton Island herself was not the first of the class), and each was powered by six ten-cylinder F-M engines. Perhaps one of these spent time in a Russian shipyard under "repairs" with Soviet engineers carefully reverse-engineering blueprints from its engines! But I can't say for certain.
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby FCP503 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:17 am

I did some quick research on wikipedia, and it has an article on the "Wind" class ice breakers. This article states the "Staten Island" served in the Soviet Navy as the "Sevemi Veter" from 1944 until returned in 1951, and that the "Southwind" served in the Soviet Navy as the "Kapitan Belusov" from 1945 until returned to the US navy in 1950 .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_class_icebreaker

This would have provided an opportunity for Soviet designers to get some design "inspiration" from the F-M design.

Anyone want to bet that at least one of the F-M engines on these ships suffered a "catastrophic failure" and that the a replacement engine was required???
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Allen Hazen » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:51 pm

""Staten Island" served in the Soviet Navy as the "Sevemi Veter" "
----The name situation is convoluted. Staten Island was built for the U.S. Navy as Northwind, and the Russians called her Severny Veter: direct translation of "North Wind" into Russian. While she was away, the USN named one of the later ships of the class Northwind, so when she came back she needed a new name. (Well, I guess any railfan who understands the Union Pacific's roster would think this little bit of renaming is simple! (Grin!))

"Anyone want to bet that at least one of the F-M engines on these ships suffered a "catastrophic failure" and that the a replacement engine was required???"
----The thought did occur to me. (Very wide grin!)
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Petz » Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:58 pm

Think the "catastrophic failure" describes an empty place where the engine usually should have been.... :P

It´s no secret that many engine designs of russian locomotives based on USA - constructions.
Based on the fact that the russian locomotive producers have created no new innovations but developed the engines to higher output and reability; meantimely i´m a very big fan of russian diesels too.

Two 3Te10u 9000 hp hard working units smoking in the best FM - style :wink:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjqz96rDu08
Estonia Tem2U Alco 539 based but with rather better sounding :-D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzqCMOiwNms
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Re: fm engines in russian 2te10m locomotives

Postby Allen Hazen » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:31 pm

Petz--
Nice videos! ... Russian railways have very high clearances: allowed steam locomotives to have extra-tall stacks, and it seems also allows the characteristic side-by-side stacks of FM-style diesels to be made more obvious!
---
My impression was that most Te10 locomotives were built as 2Te10 twin-units. Do you know whether the two halves were drawbar-connected or connected by automatic coupler? If the former, they would need modification to allow a three-unit lash-up like that in the clip.
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