NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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SightUnseen
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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by SightUnseen » Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:19 pm

Ken W2KB wrote:
kilroy wrote:
RKO36 wrote:
necrails wrote:One would hope NJT looks to preserve existing ROW and expand the system up towards Nutley. The west side tracks, if no new customers are found, will present an opportunity to link Belville, Nutley and Clifton. A bit of creative engineering will get the line from Broad Street over to the river and on it's way. The same can be said for crossing the river into Kearny. Newark is a transit hub with Penn Station serving transit, Amtrak as well as regional and local buses. LR would further serve this hub. One day when the economy stabalizes perhaps this will come to pass.

As far as inking HBR and NLR, probably not in our lifetime. Maybe Englewood, maybe Staten Island, but crossing the Meadowlands would be a distant third on my list.


As nice (and convenient for me) it would be to bring the light rail into Nutley, it will never happen. Nutley will never ever let it happen until courts force them to. Belleville might be more reluctant, but they have enough problems with criminals coming in from Newark. They don't want to make it easier for them.


Let's see if I get their argument right, residents of the auto theft capital of the world are going to take the light rail into their town, steal their big screen TV and get back on the light rail instead of stealing a SUV in Newark and driving there. Is that right?


Not how it usually happens. The thieves take public transit to the outlying town, steal a vehicle there and drive back to a chop shop. Sometimes also breaking and entering with stolen property transported back in the stolen vehicle. That is a very common mode for crime where transit from a high crime city exists to surburban areas.


It's not just the crime that Nutley would balk at. The usual economic carrot that mass transit brings (raised property values, local business growth, etc.) in my mind just wouldn't move Nutley either.

kilroy
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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by kilroy » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:00 pm

Ken W2KB wrote:
kilroy wrote:
RKO36 wrote:
necrails wrote:One would hope NJT looks to preserve existing ROW and expand the system up towards Nutley. The west side tracks, if no new customers are found, will present an opportunity to link Belville, Nutley and Clifton. A bit of creative engineering will get the line from Broad Street over to the river and on it's way. The same can be said for crossing the river into Kearny. Newark is a transit hub with Penn Station serving transit, Amtrak as well as regional and local buses. LR would further serve this hub. One day when the economy stabalizes perhaps this will come to pass.

As far as inking HBR and NLR, probably not in our lifetime. Maybe Englewood, maybe Staten Island, but crossing the Meadowlands would be a distant third on my list.


As nice (and convenient for me) it would be to bring the light rail into Nutley, it will never happen. Nutley will never ever let it happen until courts force them to. Belleville might be more reluctant, but they have enough problems with criminals coming in from Newark. They don't want to make it easier for them.


Let's see if I get their argument right, residents of the auto theft capital of the world are going to take the light rail into their town, steal their big screen TV and get back on the light rail instead of stealing a SUV in Newark and driving there. Is that right?


Not how it usually happens. The thieves take public transit to the outlying town, steal a vehicle there and drive back to a chop shop. Sometimes also breaking and entering with stolen property transported back in the stolen vehicle. That is a very common mode for crime where transit from a high crime city exists to surburban areas.


Ken,

Do you know if Nutley, Belville, etc are counted in Newark's auto theft numbers? For years, Newark was #1 in the world in auto theft. I've seen it happen to a parked car I was sitting next to at a light rght off Broad Street. I don't think Newark would be #1 in auto theft if the riff-raff was taking the bus/train/light rail to another town to steal a car. Not saying they aren't stealing a car to take back but I think they're getting there in stolen car and not public transportation. Surely they would be fighting to end bus service and to their towns if that were the case and I haven't hearsd that one yet.
Why do we drive on parkways and park in driveways?

SightUnseen
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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by SightUnseen » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:48 pm

kilroy wrote:
Ken W2KB wrote:
kilroy wrote:
RKO36 wrote:
necrails wrote:One would hope NJT looks to preserve existing ROW and expand the system up towards Nutley. The west side tracks, if no new customers are found, will present an opportunity to link Belville, Nutley and Clifton. A bit of creative engineering will get the line from Broad Street over to the river and on it's way. The same can be said for crossing the river into Kearny. Newark is a transit hub with Penn Station serving transit, Amtrak as well as regional and local buses. LR would further serve this hub. One day when the economy stabalizes perhaps this will come to pass.

As far as inking HBR and NLR, probably not in our lifetime. Maybe Englewood, maybe Staten Island, but crossing the Meadowlands would be a distant third on my list.


As nice (and convenient for me) it would be to bring the light rail into Nutley, it will never happen. Nutley will never ever let it happen until courts force them to. Belleville might be more reluctant, but they have enough problems with criminals coming in from Newark. They don't want to make it easier for them.


Let's see if I get their argument right, residents of the auto theft capital of the world are going to take the light rail into their town, steal their big screen TV and get back on the light rail instead of stealing a SUV in Newark and driving there. Is that right?


Not how it usually happens. The thieves take public transit to the outlying town, steal a vehicle there and drive back to a chop shop. Sometimes also breaking and entering with stolen property transported back in the stolen vehicle. That is a very common mode for crime where transit from a high crime city exists to surburban areas.


Ken,

Do you know if Nutley, Belville, etc are counted in Newark's auto theft numbers? For years, Newark was #1 in the world in auto theft. I've seen it happen to a parked car I was sitting next to at a light rght off Broad Street. I don't think Newark would be #1 in auto theft if the riff-raff was taking the bus/train/light rail to another town to steal a car. Not saying they aren't stealing a car to take back but I think they're getting there in stolen car and not public transportation. Surely they would be fighting to end bus service and to their towns if that were the case and I haven't hearsd that one yet.


Hate to break the news before apparently the Newark isn't the top for car theft any more
http://autos.yahoo.com/news/auto-theft- ... -cars.html

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20 ... olen-cars/

Patrick Boylan
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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by Patrick Boylan » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:22 am

RKO36 wrote:Belleville might be more reluctant, but they have enough problems with criminals coming in from Newark. They don't want to make it easier for them.

kilroy wrote:Let's see if I get their argument right, residents of the auto theft capital of the world are going to take the light rail into their town, steal their big screen TV and get back on the light rail instead of stealing a SUV in Newark and driving there. Is that right?

Ken W2KB wrote:Not how it usually happens. The thieves take public transit to the outlying town, steal a vehicle there and drive back to a chop shop. Sometimes also breaking and entering with stolen property transported back in the stolen vehicle. That is a very common mode for crime where transit from a high crime city exists to surburban areas.

kilroy wrote:Ken,

Do you know if Nutley, Belville, etc are counted in Newark's auto theft numbers? For years, Newark was #1 in the world in auto theft. I've seen it happen to a parked car I was sitting next to at a light rght off Broad Street. I don't think Newark would be #1 in auto theft if the riff-raff was taking the bus/train/light rail to another town to steal a car. Not saying they aren't stealing a car to take back but I think they're getting there in stolen car and not public transportation. Surely they would be fighting to end bus service and to their towns if that were the case and I haven't hearsd that one yet.

RKO36, Ken W2KB, do you have anything to support your statements about criminals using public transit to commit crimes, or are you expressing opinion as fact?
Don't most US residents have a car already? If there were no public transit would that really reduce criminal's mobility enough to be worthwhile?

Because private transportation is so ubiquitous I think that the crimes public transit increases are those perpetrated on public transit itself. For example a mugger who doesn't have a car might prey on passengers waiting at the station or bus stop. You seem to be saying that public transit will help increase crime in the neighborhood, and I don't see why.

I don't believe that not having a car tends to make someone a criminal anymore than having a car makes someone honest.
I agree with kilroy, it doesn't make sense for anyone to use public transit for both legs of their burglary spree. Even if they're going to try to steal something they can carry, they'd still be interested in a fast getaway.

Ken W2KB, your idea that they might take public transit somewhere to steal a car seems reasonable for a lone thief trying to steal one near the train station, but why would their target ever be far outside the station's parking lot? I think automobiles and plasma television screens have more danger from kilroy's notion that they, whether a lone thief or one with partner, who don't have a car already, would steal one near where they live to take to the target neighborhood.

Marv95
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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by Marv95 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:17 pm

SightUnseen wrote:Hate to break the news before apparently the Newark isn't the top for car theft any more
http://autos.yahoo.com/news/auto-theft- ... -cars.html

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20 ... olen-cars/

How dare you use actual logic and research when it comes to this type of topic lol.

If the 13, 27, 74, 92 and 93 buses haven't jacked up the crime rate or damaged the QOL in Nutley and Belleville what makes you people think a light rail with limited station stops will?

SightUnseen
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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by SightUnseen » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:08 am

Marv95 wrote:
SightUnseen wrote:Hate to break the news before apparently the Newark isn't the top for car theft any more
http://autos.yahoo.com/news/auto-theft- ... -cars.html

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20 ... olen-cars/

How dare you use actual logic and research when it comes to this type of topic lol.

If the 13, 27, 74, 92 and 93 buses haven't jacked up the crime rate or damaged the QOL in Nutley and Belleville what makes you people think a light rail with limited station stops will?


Much like what we're seeing with the Northern Branch expansion for the HBLR, towns are capitalizing on the potential growth of having light rail. With the current ROW, most of the track runs near the Passaic River and runs almost parallel of Broadway and Washington Ave. For Belleville there's a huge potential to cash in by revitalizing Washington Ave and raising the property values of nearby residential neighborhoods or create new developments that are close to light rail. For Nutley the potential is smaller, (since the track soon turns inland towards Styertown in Clifton), but they could still capitalize on the space they have.

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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by Ken W2KB » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:38 pm

Patrick Boylan wrote:
RKO36 wrote:Belleville might be more reluctant, but they have enough problems with criminals coming in from Newark. They don't want to make it easier for them.

kilroy wrote:Let's see if I get their argument right, residents of the auto theft capital of the world are going to take the light rail into their town, steal their big screen TV and get back on the light rail instead of stealing a SUV in Newark and driving there. Is that right?

Ken W2KB wrote:Not how it usually happens. The thieves take public transit to the outlying town, steal a vehicle there and drive back to a chop shop. Sometimes also breaking and entering with stolen property transported back in the stolen vehicle. That is a very common mode for crime where transit from a high crime city exists to surburban areas.

kilroy wrote:Ken,

Do you know if Nutley, Belville, etc are counted in Newark's auto theft numbers? For years, Newark was #1 in the world in auto theft. I've seen it happen to a parked car I was sitting next to at a light rght off Broad Street. I don't think Newark would be #1 in auto theft if the riff-raff was taking the bus/train/light rail to another town to steal a car. Not saying they aren't stealing a car to take back but I think they're getting there in stolen car and not public transportation. Surely they would be fighting to end bus service and to their towns if that were the case and I haven't hearsd that one yet.

RKO36, Ken W2KB, do you have anything to support your statements about criminals using public transit to commit crimes, or are you expressing opinion as fact?
Don't most US residents have a car already? If there were no public transit would that really reduce criminal's mobility enough to be worthwhile?

Because private transportation is so ubiquitous I think that the crimes public transit increases are those perpetrated on public transit itself. For example a mugger who doesn't have a car might prey on passengers waiting at the station or bus stop. You seem to be saying that public transit will help increase crime in the neighborhood, and I don't see why.

I don't believe that not having a car tends to make someone a criminal anymore than having a car makes someone honest.
I agree with kilroy, it doesn't make sense for anyone to use public transit for both legs of their burglary spree. Even if they're going to try to steal something they can carry, they'd still be interested in a fast getaway.

Ken W2KB, your idea that they might take public transit somewhere to steal a car seems reasonable for a lone thief trying to steal one near the train station, but why would their target ever be far outside the station's parking lot? I think automobiles and plasma television screens have more danger from kilroy's notion that they, whether a lone thief or one with partner, who don't have a car already, would steal one near where they live to take to the target neighborhood.


Theives do not want to drive a legal car to commit crimes and it increases the chances of being identified, and do not want to steal a car near where they live since the stolen vehicle may be reported quickly and the police will be looking; the longer time spent in a stolen vehicle the more likely they will be caught. Public transportation eliminates both these risks. Also, residents in lower crime suburbs tend to more lax in securing their cars and homes. Conversations with detectives in large urban areas and surrounding suburbs will confirm the pattern.

See for somewhat of an expample:
http://www.popcenter.org/problems/resid ... car_theft/ "Residential subdivisions. Residential subdivisions surrounded by rural lands and not served by public transportation are less likely to suffer from chronic car crime."
~Ken :: Fairmont ex-UP/MP C436 MT-14M1 ::
Black River Railroad Historical Trust :: [/url]

Patrick Boylan
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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by Patrick Boylan » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:49 pm

Ken, thanks for the reply. I still think you're expressing opinion as if it's fact.
Much of what you say makes sense at some levels, but I don't think it supports the contention that public transit increases crime.
Ken W2KB wrote:Theives do not want to drive a legal car to commit crimes and it increases the chances of being identified, and do not want to steal a car near where they live since the stolen vehicle may be reported quickly and the police will be looking; the longer time spent in a stolen vehicle the more likely they will be caught.

I don't see how public transit plays any role here, except as I mentioned before the case of the lone thief who might take public transit to get to someplace to steal a car. But as soon as that thief manages to get a partner, and I think most thieves want someone to act as lookout, I think it's much more likely that they'll use a previously acquired car to get to wherever they're going to steal the car that they use to, as you put it, 'Sometimes also breaking and entering with stolen property transported back in the stolen vehicle.' Or do you think that lone burglars tend to be successful burglars?

Ken W2KB wrote:Also, residents in lower crime suburbs tend to more lax in securing their cars and homes.

yes, I agree, but I don't see what this has to do with public transit, or even common sense. Do your confirmatory conversations with detectives say that they feel it's a good idea for those residents to be lax?

Can we agree that Ann Arbor doesn't have the world's biggest public transit network? Their police department's advice doesn't seem much different from what I'd expect from a big city with public transit.
http://www.a2gov.org/government/safetys ... paign.aspx
Lock your doors and windows to prevent Crimes of Opportunity. Over 90% of Ann Arbor's crimes are thefts of property. 55% of these thefts are through unlocked doors-with most of these incidents occurring within the near-campus area. These are preventable thefts. Lock Out Crime!
Keep your car locked and your valuables stored securely. Secure CD cases, purses, radar detectors, cellular phones, portable stereos, and other valuables in trunk. Conceal otherwise conspicuous stereo equipment.

Ken W2KB wrote:See for somewhat of an expample:
http://www.popcenter.org/problems/resid ... car_theft/ "Residential subdivisions. Residential subdivisions surrounded by rural lands and not served by public transportation are less likely to suffer from chronic car crime."

Beware the danger of mixing up cause and effect. Are you sure the lack of public transportation is the reason the rurally surrounded subdivisions suffer less? Isn't that kind of like reading the Ann Arbor police department's advice and alliteratively concluding College Campuses cause crime?

that link also says
The vast majority of car thefts are committed for transportation or “joyriding.

It doesn't seem to me that public transportation is at the top of these car thieves list.

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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by ryanov » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:07 am

Ken W2KB wrote:Not how it usually happens. The thieves take public transit to the outlying town, steal a vehicle there and drive back to a chop shop. Sometimes also breaking and entering with stolen property transported back in the stolen vehicle. That is a very common mode for crime where transit from a high crime city exists to surburban areas.


Very common? According to what evidence? It sounds like complete nonsense to me.
|=| R. Novosielski |=|

SightUnseen
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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by SightUnseen » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:22 am

Patrick Boylan wrote:Ken, thanks for the reply. I still think you're expressing opinion as if it's fact.
Much of what you say makes sense at some levels, but I don't think it supports the contention that public transit increases crime.
Ken W2KB wrote:Theives do not want to drive a legal car to commit crimes and it increases the chances of being identified, and do not want to steal a car near where they live since the stolen vehicle may be reported quickly and the police will be looking; the longer time spent in a stolen vehicle the more likely they will be caught.

I don't see how public transit plays any role here, except as I mentioned before the case of the lone thief who might take public transit to get to someplace to steal a car. But as soon as that thief manages to get a partner, and I think most thieves want someone to act as lookout, I think it's much more likely that they'll use a previously acquired car to get to wherever they're going to steal the car that they use to, as you put it, 'Sometimes also breaking and entering with stolen property transported back in the stolen vehicle.' Or do you think that lone burglars tend to be successful burglars?

Ken W2KB wrote:Also, residents in lower crime suburbs tend to more lax in securing their cars and homes.

yes, I agree, but I don't see what this has to do with public transit, or even common sense. Do your confirmatory conversations with detectives say that they feel it's a good idea for those residents to be lax?

Can we agree that Ann Arbor doesn't have the world's biggest public transit network? Their police department's advice doesn't seem much different from what I'd expect from a big city with public transit.
http://www.a2gov.org/government/safetys ... paign.aspx
Lock your doors and windows to prevent Crimes of Opportunity. Over 90% of Ann Arbor's crimes are thefts of property. 55% of these thefts are through unlocked doors-with most of these incidents occurring within the near-campus area. These are preventable thefts. Lock Out Crime!
Keep your car locked and your valuables stored securely. Secure CD cases, purses, radar detectors, cellular phones, portable stereos, and other valuables in trunk. Conceal otherwise conspicuous stereo equipment.

Ken W2KB wrote:See for somewhat of an expample:
http://www.popcenter.org/problems/resid ... car_theft/ "Residential subdivisions. Residential subdivisions surrounded by rural lands and not served by public transportation are less likely to suffer from chronic car crime."

Beware the danger of mixing up cause and effect. Are you sure the lack of public transportation is the reason the rurally surrounded subdivisions suffer less? Isn't that kind of like reading the Ann Arbor police department's advice and alliteratively concluding College Campuses cause crime?

that link also says
The vast majority of car thefts are committed for transportation or “joyriding.

It doesn't seem to me that public transportation is at the top of these car thieves list.


What we're really talking about here nearly 50 years and 2 1/2 generations of bias, stereotypes, blah, blah, blah, about Newark. Too which if anyone has been paying attention over the last decade this isn't the same Newark of the 70's and 80's post riot years.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned in this conversation, the Silver Lake stop in Belleville and the Grove St. stop in Bloomfield. Has crime(particularly robbery, burglary, and auto theft) gone up in those places due the light rail?
The purpose of mass transit is to make it easier for anyone to get from place to place. Does that mean would be criminals would use it expand the thier horizons... Absolutely!
The question is, should that be a deterrent for expansion... Absolutely not!
NJ has pushed smart growth through transit oriented development. Jersey City and the surrounding communities have certainly benefitted from the HBLR, and I think it's about time that Newark and it's surrounding cities and towns be able to do the same.

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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by Patrick Boylan » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:19 am

Ken W2KB wrote:Not how it usually happens. The thieves take public transit to the outlying town, steal a vehicle there and drive back to a chop shop. Sometimes also breaking and entering with stolen property transported back in the stolen vehicle. That is a very common mode for crime where transit from a high crime city exists to surburban areas.

Patrick Boylan wrote:that link also says
The vast majority of car thefts are committed for transportation or “joyriding.

It doesn't seem to me that public transportation is at the top of these car thieves list.


I reread my prior message, and wish not for the first time that I had read what I typed more carefully before I hit 'submit'. Sorry for the ambiguity, when I said 'that link' I meant the one Ken cited http://www.a2gov.org/government/safetys ... paign.aspx
'vast majority of car thefts ... for ... joyriding' doesn't agree with Ken's 'steal a vehicle there and drive back to a chop shop.... breaking and entering with stolen property transported back in the stolen vehicle.... very common' comment.

RKO36
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Re: NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Post by RKO36 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:40 pm

I'm not saying that public transit increases crime. I don't know what it has to do with crime at all. With my original post I didn't even consider it. Nutley would try their hardest to prevent the lightrail coming into town no matter what the numbers say. It's just not something Nutley does. Nutley tries to come off as better than Belleville, Bloomfield, Montclair, and especially Newark. It's been that way for years and won't change. No matter how logical it would be to have the light rail pull up right into the Shop Rite parking lot they wouldn't do it. Crime numbers have nothing to do with it.

Belleville, still might be hesitant because Belleville police make it seem like every criminal they arrest came in from Newark (and a good portion of them do come from Newark). Again, I don't know what the stats say. Maybe lightrail doesn't increase crime. I just think Belleville would be reluctant to allow further expansion.

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Re: NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Post by NJTRailfan » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:49 pm

To hell with these local townships. When it comes to their mentality they are worse then the 5th century throwbacks in Afghanistan we call "The Taliban" There are some fools who will not change and because of these fools WE are the ones suffering for our mass transit shortfalls. It's because of this nations in Europe and Asia have kicked our asses again, again and yet again. It's sad that it was us that were #1 and now were are struggling to catch up with the rest of the world.
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Re: NCS to Broad Street Station ("Newark Light Rail")

Post by SightUnseen » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:54 am

NJTRailfan wrote:To hell with these local townships. When it comes to their mentality they are worse then the 5th century throwbacks in Afghanistan we call "The Taliban" There are some fools who will not change and because of these fools WE are the ones suffering for our mass transit shortfalls. It's because of this nations in Europe and Asia have kicked our asses again, again and yet again. It's sad that it was us that were #1 and now were are struggling to catch up with the rest of the world.


In my opinion, it's not the NIMBY mentality that's slowing the growth for the NRL. It comes down to priorities, geography, and economics.The HBLR and the River Line have seen growth due to their proximity to larger cities and that's their draw for ridership(more so for the HBLR than for The river line). Newark's biggest draw is that it is a transportation hub for region. Having connections to Newark Penn or Broad St. stations aren't enough. I think was a big mistake not to complete the NERL. Just the connection alone to the airport would have been worth it. Any expansion should start with that first, because it becomes the draw for later expansion.

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Re: Newark Light Rail Extension

Post by ChrisGnwk » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:09 am

Ken W2KB wrote:
kilroy wrote:
RKO36 wrote:
necrails wrote:One would hope NJT looks to preserve existing ROW and expand the system up towards Nutley. The west side tracks, if no new customers are found, will present an opportunity to link Belville, Nutley and Clifton. A bit of creative engineering will get the line from Broad Street over to the river and on it's way. The same can be said for crossing the river into Kearny. Newark is a transit hub with Penn Station serving transit, Amtrak as well as regional and local buses. LR would further serve this hub. One day when the economy stabalizes perhaps this will come to pass.

As far as inking HBR and NLR, probably not in our lifetime. Maybe Englewood, maybe Staten Island, but crossing the Meadowlands would be a distant third on my list.


As nice (and convenient for me) it would be to bring the light rail into Nutley, it will never happen. Nutley will never ever let it happen until courts force them to. Belleville might be more reluctant, but they have enough problems with criminals coming in from Newark. They don't want to make it easier for them.


Let's see if I get their argument right, residents of the auto theft capital of the world are going to take the light rail into their town, steal their big screen TV and get back on the light rail instead of stealing a SUV in Newark and driving there. Is that right?


Not how it usually happens. The thieves take public transit to the outlying town, steal a vehicle there and drive back to a chop shop. Sometimes also breaking and entering with stolen property transported back in the stolen vehicle. That is a very common mode for crime where transit from a high crime city exists to surburban areas.



Thats actually never how it happens ... have you ever been on a bus and seen someone walking around with a safe and black and white striped shirt ? since when can any minority ( since were talking about nwk) walk around a wealthy surburban neighborhood and go unnoticed... couple that with the fact that they arent driving there walking... and then you have to wait on transit to come back... all it would take is a bus to be late or not see you at the stop and now your stuck in the middle of nowhere with stolen goods... dont let ignorance rule your life

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