The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

Moderators: Tadman, ACeInTheHole, Kaback9, nick11a

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby njt/mnrrbuff » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:07 am

That is true about the old Rockland Coaches not going north of Westwood. Anyway the NJT bus route ending in Westwood offers a lot more service than the train.
njt/mnrrbuff
 
Posts: 3335
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:33 pm

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby oknazevad » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:15 pm

No, you have that backwards. NJT buses don't go north of Westwood. Rockland Coaches does.
rails > roads

On second thought, let's not go to the NJ Transit Rail forum, 'tis a silly place.
User avatar
oknazevad
 
Posts: 769
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:41 am
Location: Near North Hackensack Station

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby EuroStar » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:59 am

CPSK wrote:What is the possibility that the passing siding in Oradell will be built?


The only thing that will get the Oradell siding built is the completion of the Secaucus Loop if the Loop ever happens. Direct train to NYP without transfer is the only thing that can cause enough increase in ridership to justify it. The other one is demands for more service by Metro-North, but even if Metro-North wants to pay for the siding politics of "why are you building this here if it does not benefit NJ commuters" type will prevent that from happening.
EuroStar
 
Posts: 673
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:26 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby njt/mnrrbuff » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:50 pm

Keep in mind that if the loop were to ever get built, NJT trains that are heading to Bergen County and points north would have to pass the upper level platforms before making their descent to the lower level platforms which might not save a lot of time. Personally, I am not for the loop project because it wouldn't save much time. What might help is to add elevators from the upper level tracks to the lower level ones. Even if the loop were to get built, the bus would continue to still be the most convenient way to and from the city if you live in Bergen County.
njt/mnrrbuff
 
Posts: 3335
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 9:33 pm

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby kilroy » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:47 pm

It's not so much about time but convenience.

The coveted one seat ride is about people not having to get their fat arse out of their seat before their final destination, especially if it is hot or cold outside.
Why do we drive on parkways and park in driveways?
User avatar
kilroy
 
Posts: 897
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 am
Location: Central Jersey

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby CPSK » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:57 am

IMHO, that "coveted" one seat ride is overrated. Look at all the people in NYC who need to take multiple subway lines to reach their destination. Manhannanites are probably a lot healthier than NJites, for all the walking they do, even when it is just to get from the #1 train to the A at 59th st or other transfers.
I am often disgusted with how NJites will take their cars three blocks to by a quart of milk or other small groceries that could easily be carried by foot.

I do have to agree on the elevators at Secaucus. Why weren't more elevators designed into the original station? It makes good sense to have ones that would go from the upper to the lower track levels.
Could it have to do with the ticketing system? The gated access to the upper level tracks was a bone-headed idea. If one purchases a ticked from a point on the Bergen County Line to NYP, why does this passenger need to pass through the gates on the upper level? The conductors read and punch the tickets on each train, right? What is the real purpose of the gates? To prevent unticketed or improperly ticketed passengers from riding trains? If that's the purpose, then why don't they need gates at Metro North stations?
The conductor will simply require a passenger to purchase a ticket or ticket upgrade on the train - adding whatever surcharge is in effect to the fare.

I recall once returning home from a trip to Dover.
I purchased a round-trip ticket for my dad and myself. My dad is a senior citizen, so he got a discounted fare.
On the outbound trip, we took the Pascack Valley train from New Bridge Landing to Hoboken, then the Morris line to Dover.
On the return trip, we took a Midtown-Direct train from Dover to Secaucus. When I got to the gates on the upper level, my ticket would not open the gate. My dad's was fine.
An assistant informed me that I needed to purchase an additional ticket to cover the difference in fare. Apparently, Midtown-Direct fares are higher, even if you only go to Secaucus. Funny that I was actually traveling a shorter distance - but of course it's not about distance in this situation. I guess it's the surcharge that helps NJT pay Amtrak for use of the NEC tracks.

About that very expensive property adjacent to the PVL tracks at CP Golf...
I think you're referring to the Blauvelt Mansion, and I think there are other high-priced homes in that area as well. But the tracks run at least 1/4 mile from those homes, and there is an assisted living facility between the tracks and the road. I would think that there is enough noise from the road, that just a few more trains per day wouldn't have been noticed.
But there are always NIMBY's who will come out of their homes and go to hearings whenever any project that could affect their "quality of living" comes up.
User avatar
CPSK
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:29 am

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby andrewjw » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:04 am

CPSK wrote:I do have to agree on the elevators at Secaucus. Why weren't more elevators designed into the original station? It makes good sense to have ones that would go from the upper to the lower track levels.
Could it have to do with the ticketing system? The gated access to the upper level tracks was a bone-headed idea. If one purchases a ticked from a point on the Bergen County Line to NYP, why does this passenger need to pass through the gates on the upper level? The conductors read and punch the tickets on each train, right? What is the real purpose of the gates? To prevent unticketed or improperly ticketed passengers from riding trains? If that's the purpose, then why don't they need gates at Metro North stations?
The conductor will simply require a passenger to purchase a ticket or ticket upgrade on the train - adding whatever surcharge is in effect to the fare.


This seems the likely reason for the elevators.
So many peak trains from NYP to SEC are so crowded that it would be very impractical to check tickets before SEC. Even on a less crowded train, the conductors often don't make it through before SEC. Without the barriers, someone could buy tickets from somewhere on the Erie or PVL to HOB, and one-ways from SEC to NYP that would be punched only occasionally. Or worse, they could buy tickets from Suffern to NYP, have them punched 'first half' inbound to SEC, then give that ticket back for 'second half' on the outbound from SEC - remember that tickets are valid for travel in either direction - and carry SEC to NYP tickets for the conductor if they ever came through.
andrewjw
 
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:48 am

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby CPSK » Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:08 pm

andrewjw wrote:This seems the likely reason for the elevators.
So many peak trains from NYP to SEC are so crowded that it would be very impractical to check tickets before SEC. Even on a less crowded train, the conductors often don't make it through before SEC. Without the barriers, someone could buy tickets from somewhere on the Erie or PVL to HOB, and one-ways from SEC to NYP that would be punched only occasionally. Or worse, they could buy tickets from Suffern to NYP, have them punched 'first half' inbound to SEC, then give that ticket back for 'second half' on the outbound from SEC - remember that tickets are valid for travel in either direction - and carry SEC to NYP tickets for the conductor if they ever came through.

That makes sense. I hadn't realized that tickets were non-directional. I don't ride NJT (trains) all that much; mostly Metro North, and their tickets are definitely directional.
I have ridden LIRR to/from NY Mets games, and sometimes the conductor didn't get around before the train reached its destination. But at least on the inbound trip, there is always someone checking tickets at the gate as you enter the station from the stadium walkway.

I'm curious as to when physical tickets will "go away". The whole concept of printing and checking tickets seems seriously outdated in today's world of smartphones, RFID, and other technologies that can make physical ticketing obsolete.
I do understand that such a sophisticated system would be much more complex on routes like NJT, Metro North, LIRR, and Amtrak as compared to the NYC subway where there is only one fare.
I think that RFID could work very well. Just install the RFID readers in every car on every train. Unfortunately though, this might leave a lot of train conductors out of work :(
User avatar
CPSK
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:29 am

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby lensovet » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:25 pm

NJT already has mobile ticketing. Those tickets never expire and you can't lose them.
Paul Borokhov

Last RRPicArch addition – NJ Railfan.

NJT RailCalifornia commuter (mod)
User avatar
lensovet
 
Posts: 1051
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby MACTRAXX » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:23 am

CPSK wrote:
andrewjw wrote:This seems the likely reason for the elevators.
So many peak trains from NYP to SEC are so crowded that it would be very impractical to check tickets before SEC. Even on a less crowded train, the conductors often don't make it through before SEC. Without the barriers, someone could buy tickets from somewhere on the Erie or PVL to HOB, and one-ways from SEC to NYP that would be punched only occasionally. Or worse, they could buy tickets from Suffern to NYP, have them punched 'first half' inbound to SEC, then give that ticket back for 'second half' on the outbound from SEC - remember that tickets are valid for travel in either direction - and carry SEC to NYP tickets for the conductor if they ever came through.

That makes sense. I hadn't realized that tickets were non-directional. I don't ride NJT (trains) all that much; mostly Metro North, and their tickets are definitely directional.
I have ridden LIRR to/from NY Mets games, and sometimes the conductor didn't get around before the train reached its destination. But at least on the inbound trip, there is always someone checking tickets at the gate as you enter the station from the stadium walkway.

I'm curious as to when physical tickets will "go away". The whole concept of printing and checking tickets seems seriously outdated in today's world of smartphones, RFID, and other technologies that can make physical ticketing obsolete.
I do understand that such a sophisticated system would be much more complex on routes like NJT, Metro North, LIRR, and Amtrak as compared to the NYC subway where there is only one fare.
I think that RFID could work very well. Just install the RFID readers in every car on every train. Unfortunately though, this might leave a lot of train conductors out of work :(

CPSK: I could not disagree with you more on the subject of physical tickets. I would much rather
have a ticket in hand instead of having to rely on smart phone technology. This is - and always
will be - my own personal preference in this matter.

NJT One Way tickets DO have the direction of travel indicated on them by their punching...

Ever taken note to the "punch circles" in the upper right and lower right on all NJT One Way
tickets? Upper Right means "TO" and Lower Right means "FROM" for transfers...

Example: One Way tickets PUNCHED CORRECTLY to NYP via SEC would have the upper right
circle AND SEC punched. From NYP to (destination) via SEC the lower right circle would be
punched along with SEC and then would be collected and cancelled (cancel circle-middle right)
on the second train. The only way a ticket would be valid for a reverse ride if only the SEC was
punched. I have an uncollected one way ticket from a PJ Line station punched in the upper
right circle and SEC that would only be valid between SEC-NYP.

Going off topic for the note about LIRR ticket collection at the Mets-Willets Point Station: On Mets
game days all fares are collected at the gate before, during and after games. The ticket may not
be collected or serviced on board but it will be needed to exit the station. Any cash fares will have
the on-board surcharge applied.

In closing a mixture of both ticket types works for the majority of riders. NJT would be smart to
keep it that way...MACTRAXX
EXPRESS TRAIN TO NEW YORK PENN STATION-NO JAMAICA ON THIS TRAIN-PLEASE STAND CLEAR OF THE CLOSING TRAIN DOORS
MACTRAXX
 
Posts: 4004
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 11:55 am
Location: Islandia,Long Island,NY

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby CPSK » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:21 am

lensovet wrote:NJT already has mobile ticketing. Those tickets never expire and you can't lose them.

I am aware of mobile ticketing. What I had in mind to replace physical tickets is something akin to the EZ-Pass system, where no one needs to read the ticket. A fare would be collected from a passenger's account based on where he/she entered the first train, to where he/she left the last train, with tracking at transfer stations like Secaucus. This system would also include buses and light-rail.
However, I can see the problems with implementing such a system during the prolonged period when both manual (tickets & conductors) and electronic systems are in place.
When the conductor walks the aisle collecting tickets, he would have no way of knowing that everyone without a ticket showing has already paid electronically.
So I guess the "EZ-Pass" type of fare collection will work only on single-fare systems like the NYC subways.
User avatar
CPSK
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:29 am

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby andrewjw » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:33 pm

An "EZPass" system would almost surely require non-disposable cards like a rapid transit system - so someone taking the one-off tourist round trip from EWR to NYP might have $5 (standard amount) added to their fare that would later be refunded (on online registration) onto a card they'd never use again.
I'm not aware of an implementation of any system that works without any kind of tap. Oyster's use across London transit modes - with tap points on trains, perhaps - almost matches your description.

Physical tickets are essential - phones run out of battery, and a handful of people still don't have smartphones. Also, can't pay cash to the app.

NJT tickets have a direction indicated, but are accepted in either direction. It is only since around the start of this year that the tickets have reliably been punched in the correct direction - they still are often punched wrong if I present a ticket for the 'wrong' direction. Often only 'SEC' would be punched in either direction. (Or, in my case, 'PJC'.)
andrewjw
 
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:48 am

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby CPSK » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:38 pm

This article https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/23/nyre ... -york.html, says that the MTA will be replacing the MetroCard with the type of system used in London.
I suppose that type of system works best for single-fare routes, but might get pretty costly for multi-fare lines like NJT. They would need gates at every station, and one would need to scan their e-ticket when entering and leaving the system.
User avatar
CPSK
 
Posts: 546
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:29 am

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby andrewjw » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:37 pm

CPSK wrote:This article https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/23/nyre ... -york.html, says that the MTA will be replacing the MetroCard with the type of system used in London.
I suppose that type of system works best for single-fare routes, but might get pretty costly for multi-fare lines like NJT. They would need gates at every station, and one would need to scan their e-ticket when entering and leaving the system.

That's not how it works in London - or in the Bay Area, or currently in-progress Philly and Boston implementations. The standard is that outlying stations have readers on the platforms, but no gates. Only center stations (NY, HOB, SEC, EWR, NP, NB) would get fare gates. If you only hit at one end of the trip, you'd be billed the max zone from that station.
andrewjw
 
Posts: 367
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:48 am

Re: The Pascack Valley Line Thread

Postby lensovet » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:43 am

andrewjw wrote:
CPSK wrote:This article https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/23/nyre ... -york.html, says that the MTA will be replacing the MetroCard with the type of system used in London.
I suppose that type of system works best for single-fare routes, but might get pretty costly for multi-fare lines like NJT. They would need gates at every station, and one would need to scan their e-ticket when entering and leaving the system.

That's not how it works in London - or in the Bay Area, or currently in-progress Philly and Boston implementations. The standard is that outlying stations have readers on the platforms, but no gates. Only center stations (NY, HOB, SEC, EWR, NP, NB) would get fare gates. If you only hit at one end of the trip, you'd be billed the max zone from that station.

yep. this conveniently also automatically gives you correct fare for transfers between modes/agencies, etc.
Paul Borokhov

Last RRPicArch addition – NJ Railfan.

NJT RailCalifornia commuter (mod)
User avatar
lensovet
 
Posts: 1051
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

PreviousNext

Return to New Jersey Transit NJT Rail and Light Rail LRT

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Feedfetcher and 5 guests