Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

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SouthernRailway
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Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by SouthernRailway » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:33 pm

This weekend, I took New Jersey Transit's Midtown Direct train from NY Penn Station to Dover, NJ.

It's 40 miles.

It took 1 hour and 45 minutes: 7:11am to 8:56am.

That's an average speed of 22.9 miles per hour.

That is absolutely ridiculous! The train went through some very nice areas such as Short Hills and Summit.

Why is there no movement to dramatically increase train speeds? Why do the upper-income residents of those towns tolerate such slow speeds? Every minute on the train is a minute that is not spent doing client development, reviewing financial reports or recovering at home.

TSTII
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Re: Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by TSTII » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:56 pm

They are locals making most all station stops....what would you expect ?

SouthernRailway
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Re: Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by SouthernRailway » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:50 pm

TSTII wrote:They are locals making most all station stops....what would you expect ?
I would expect:

1. Faster speeds on the stretches without stops, such as during the 15-20 minute stretch near Dover.
2. More express trains.

ryanov
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Re: Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by ryanov » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:48 am

The locals are taking express trains during rush hour.

I ride mostly off peak, and mostly not to NYC. That's not the norm.
|=| R. Novosielski |=|

SecaucusJunction
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Re: Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by SecaucusJunction » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:16 am

It's so true! NJT forgot what an express was about the time they cancelled the Tom Tabor. The rule of thumb is, every time a train gets changed to go directly to NYC, it gets slower and stops more often. It happened with the Dover trains, it happened with the Montclair trains.

The only trains that make any time on the Hoboken Division are sponsored by Metro North.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

EuroStar
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Re: Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by EuroStar » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:46 am

The answer is money! The trains are slow because NJ State is not willing to give NJTransit enough money to run expresses and this is especially acute on weekends when everything that runs is locals (with a few exceptions on the NEC). On weekdays, especially during rush hour the availability of express service is decent.

I am not going to claim that NJT spends the money it gets all that efficiently, but express service requires extra crews, extra train sets running and extra power. All that costs money. Given that the original poster was complaining about weekend service on the M&E, I will focus on that. Any express service to say stations beyond Summit requires extra trainsets. The simplest way to do this is to stop at every stop between Dover and Summit and then expressing to Newark and NYP. This requires a second train starting at Summit and making all local stops to Newark before going to NYP. The reason why this is not done is money. That split of the single all stop local to an express plus Summit local will practically double the costs in terms of crew/power/wear and tear while bringing only marginally more revenue due to increased passenger counts between Dover and Summit (there will be some small increase due to people switching away from driving and the buses). Anyone who tells you that this is not done because of the tunnels into NYP is wrong. While due to tunnel maintenance the weekend schedule is made so that it can be handled with a single tunnel leading to bunching all inbound trains into 30 minute window (so that the other 30 minutes of the hour can be used for outbound trains) there is enough capacity in those 30 minutes for at least another 3-4 trains. There is nothing that can be done about the 30 minute window on weekends short of building the Gateway tunnels.

Apart from money, there is another barrier and that is one seat ride to NYP. Everyone wants a one seat ride to NYP from their station and it is not something that can be taken away easily. The only times one seat rides can be taken away are recessions when revenues fall dramatically. It is very easy to provide one seat ride to everyone: run an all stop local the way NJT currently does on the M&E. Doing so has the advantage of being the cheapest way to provide weekend service. Any attempt to finagle something else other than the Summit starting local is bound to cause someone who currently has a one seat ride on weekends to lose it. For example:

1. Making the existing NYP bound from Dover express after Summit while extending the Gladstone-Summit shuttles to a Gladstone-Hoboken all stop local will force everyone from Summit-Newark to change trains at Newark Broad for a trip to NYP. Of course the timing for the change at Newark Broad has to be right, but on weekends that can be done given how few trains actually run. The main problem is that some rich and as a result very vocal and politically connected people in Millburn and Short Hills will complain about the loss of their one seat ride to NYP.
2. Alternatively you can make a train run local Dover to Summit and then express to Newark Broad before going to Hoboken making everyone who just got an express ride switch at Broad Street onto, for example, an extended all stop Gladstone-Summit-Newark Broad-NYP local. The problem with that is that the train change at Newark negates the time savings of running express between Summit and Newark. Strategically it also makes no sense to have the Dover-Summit crowd switch trains while the Gladstone-Summit one gets a one seat ride to Penn because the ridership from stations between Dover and Summit far exceeds the ridership from stations between Gladstone and Summit.

You can try alternative schemes with rerouting the existing Monclair train to NYP while sending the Galdstone-Dover shuttle to Hoboken, but no matter what you try there is no way to provide the express service without an extra train and either making that extra train go to NYP or reroute the shuttle or the Montclair train into NYP or someone losing their one seat ride to NYP.

The only thing that will cause NJT to run express service will be overcrowding. If and when the existing one per hour weekend locals between Dover and NYP get too full to be handled with 10 car multilevel consists, NJT will be forced to add another train and then you will get some form of express to at least some stations. I do not foresee that happening for another couple of decades though unless the Oranges or Morristown experience a building and as a result ridership boom. The rest of the towns on the line have such restrictive building codes that they cannot grow meaningfully in population and as a result in ridership.

As opposed to NJT, Metro-North seems to understand the necessity of express service on weekends. Metro-North pays NJT to run a few expresses to Port Jervis even on weekends. Metro-North also has a very robust weekend express schedule on its east of Hudson lines.

Yankees1
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Re: Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by Yankees1 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:36 am

EuroStar wrote: Apart from money, there is another barrier and that is one seat ride to NYP. Everyone wants a one seat ride to NYP from their station and it is not something that can be taken away easily.
Agreed, and there would be a full on riot if they added a weekend express train on the Morris and Essex Line before providing the Raritan Valley Line riders with a weekend one seat ride (currently those trains terminate in Newark)

SecaucusJunction
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Re: Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by SecaucusJunction » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:48 pm

On weekends, Amtrak single tracks the tunnel every single week so getting any more trains through would not be possible.

Given a choice between a true express to Hoboken and a painfully slow MD train to NYP, I think I'd choose Hoboken.

I could probably walk through Montclair faster than those trains move.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

njt/mnrrbuff
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Re: Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by njt/mnrrbuff » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:11 pm

The type of income class doesn’t have much to do with the slowness of a local train on the M&E. I have ridden that line many times, especially on locals, and must say that riding a local train is extremely slow. There isn’t enough track capacity into and out of NYP. It would also have been nice for NJT to have extended the third track to Summit but there are many grades between Millburn and Summit with little space for a third track. There might be resident opposition too.

CarterB
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Re: Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by CarterB » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:34 pm

like an elephant parade, following each others tails
Bring back the Slumbercoaches!!

EuroStar
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Re: Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by EuroStar » Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:28 pm

SecaucusJunction wrote:Given a choice between a true express to Hoboken and a painfully slow MD train to NYP, I think I'd choose Hoboken.
Where would you run the express to justify it? Dover-Summit and then express to Newark Broad and Hoboken is unlikely to gain enough ridership to justify. Same for Gladstone-Summit local plus express to Newark Broad and Hoboken.

njt/mnrrbuff
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Re: Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by njt/mnrrbuff » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:27 pm

Dover expresses might do it, even on weekends. By the time the train gets to Summit, it is very crowded. As the train continues to make more stops east of Summit, they fill up even faster. Trains that run express between NWK Broad and Summit basically save 15 minutes off of the schedule.

rr503
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Re: Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by rr503 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:56 pm

People want NYP because the cost of going to HOB and taking PATH is almost across the board greater than staying on to NYP, despite the fact that many (esp. off peak trips, whose destinations are more likely to be found in Brooklyn, the Village, Lower Manh, etc) are better served on that route. Fix that, and it's a whole new ball game...

pdtrains
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Re: Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by pdtrains » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:53 am

Stations in NJ are also very close together. a result of the towns being developed in the area over 150 years ago. Many stations are a mile or less apart, so there is no space to speed up, and stopping every mile...my goodness...22 mph is about right for a local.

Out here on the west coast, towns are 5 to 10 miles apart . Oxnard to LA on metrolink is a 70 mile trip, with 9 stops. And that's stopping at every town along the way, and 2 stops in burbank (airport and downtown)

njt/mnrrbuff
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Re: Northern New Jersey lines: why so slow?

Post by njt/mnrrbuff » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:06 am

Yes, in general, the stops on the NJT Hoboken Side are very close to each other, especially on the M&E east of Short Hills up to East Orange and the Montclair Boonton between MSU and Watsessing Ave. That contributes to why taking a local train on any of those stretches to an endpoint is slow. In fact, if you live anywhere west of MSU, especially in Wayne and the Morris County towns along the Montclair-Boonton Line and you want to travel to Midtown, the bus is a good option and better than the train. Even from Dover and Denville, the bus is faster than the train, even with some traffic. Once you get passed Morristown, then the train probably starts to match with driving times.

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