Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby Return to Reading Company Olney Sta » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:26 pm

rr503 wrote:I mean, just because the line goes to AC doesn’t mean all the trains have to go there too... You could turn all but 1-2 tph in Lindenwold or Westwood.


Yes, in fact that was the plan in the study mentioned earlier in the thread.

As to possible propulsion power, been a while since I read the article but IIRC it was noted that third rail was not feasible due primarily to the numerous grade crossings. Believe catenary and diesel propulsion from LDW to ACY were considered as options. Of course as noted in some earlier comments cost was an obstacle. When the available of funding to restore the line as conventional rail with Amtrak and NJT service, the PATCO extension became moot.

Will try and find the Quarterly article and see what other points in mentions.
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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby rr503 » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:23 pm

Return to Reading Company Olney Sta wrote:
rr503 wrote:I mean, just because the line goes to AC doesn’t mean all the trains have to go there too... You could turn all but 1-2 tph in Lindenwold or Westwood.



As to possible propulsion power, been a while since I read the article but IIRC it was noted that third rail was not feasible due primarily to the numerous grade crossings. Believe catenary and diesel propulsion from LDW to ACY were considered as options. Of course as noted in some earlier comments cost was an obstacle.


Why were grade crossings seen as an obstacle to 3rd rail? LIRR, MNR and CTA all operate across plenty of them without any issues not inherent in general grade crossing ops...
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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby lensovet » Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:36 pm

sure but if you're talking long-term, I don't think third rail makes sense, that's all…
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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby EDM5970 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:21 am

The LIRR, Metro North and CTA third rail installations are 'legacy' systems, put in years ago, long before everyone was looking for an excuse to sue someone. There are enormous safety issues, and as noted, the technical consideration regarding substations. DC does not travel well. The more practical option would be 25K, commercial frequency AC, with fairly lightly constructed catenary. The AC line is not the NEC, never will be.

To run AC to 16th and Market, a new breed of PATCO cars would have to be built, with similar electrical equipment to the cars that Metro North runs from GCT to New Haven; (nominal) 600 VDC third rail, 25k AC overhead. Much smaller of course, to match PATCO's clearances, and a track connection would have to be put in at Lindenwold.
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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby jamesinclair » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:27 am

A better example would be the MBTA blue line, which uses 3rd rail underground, and switches to overhead when it goes above ground. They look like standard subway cars.
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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby mtuandrew » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:47 pm

Going back to the Chicago, North Shore & Milwaukee, it’s longstanding practice for interurbans to have a third rail shoe at 600vdc for cities and a trolley pole for 600/sometimes 1200vdc in the country. No reason this couldn’t do the same, but 750vdc on PATCO and 1500/3000vdc overhead on the ACL. Medium-tension DC saves you half to three-quarters of the substations you’d need for low-tension DC.
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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby ConrailRailfan » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:05 pm

I also wonder why 4145 is on MARC in Maryland when NJT already gave their cars back. NJT is short power as it is, just dosen't make sense.
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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby mackdave » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:52 pm

NJT 4145 was the payment for the "borrowed" coaches. NJ and NJT are broke, so it's time to barter with what they have.

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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby EDM5970 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:58 pm

Commercial frequency AC would offer more flexibility. Lets imagine the entire line electrified, from the NEC to AC, and with a connection to PATCO at Lindenwold. You could operate the dual voltage PATCO cars (read up a few posts) into Center City, and larger MUs or push-pulls into 30th Street. Of course, your PATCO cars would have to be FRA compliant, and you would need a phase break between the NEC and the AC line. The newer equipment can be set up to automatically switch voltages and frequencies on the fly.
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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby ConrailRailfan » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:17 am

So I guess they gave 4145 to them permanently? I figured they would get 4145 back when they gave the coaches back.
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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby Ryand-Smith » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:07 am

EDM5970 wrote:Commercial frequency AC would offer more flexibility. Lets imagine the entire line electrified, from the NEC to AC, and with a connection to PATCO at Lindenwold. You could operate the dual voltage PATCO cars (read up a few posts) into Center City, and larger MUs or push-pulls into 30th Street. Of course, your PATCO cars would have to be FRA compliant, and you would need a phase break between the NEC and the AC line. The newer equipment can be set up to automatically switch voltages and frequencies on the fly.


So a Super PA-5 car since PATH cars are FRA heavy rail style equipment and assuming PATCO style fleet management (so make them either super singles or at best married pairs), and add Proof of Payment to save costs since machines are cheap anyway and the NJT Transit app means most people owuld be using the app.
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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby Ryand-Smith » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:07 am

EDM5970 wrote:Commercial frequency AC would offer more flexibility. Lets imagine the entire line electrified, from the NEC to AC, and with a connection to PATCO at Lindenwold. You could operate the dual voltage PATCO cars (read up a few posts) into Center City, and larger MUs or push-pulls into 30th Street. Of course, your PATCO cars would have to be FRA compliant, and you would need a phase break between the NEC and the AC line. The newer equipment can be set up to automatically switch voltages and frequencies on the fly.


So a Super PA-5 car since PATH cars are FRA heavy rail style equipment and assuming PATCO style fleet management (so make them either super singles or at best married pairs), and add Proof of Payment to save costs since machines are cheap anyway and the NJT Transit app means most people owuld be using the app.
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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby mtuandrew » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:28 am

Silly question: if NJT can’t afford to run diesel service, how will they be able to afford rapid transit service?

A diesel LRT or DMU seems in order, trading expanded service (and potential service elsewhere in South Jersey) for a Camden terminus.
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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby CarterB » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:32 am

Take the bus!! More frequent and drops you right off at the Casinos.
Bring back the Slumbercoaches!!
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Re: Major NJT cuts, no AC line for 5 months and more

Postby lensovet » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:51 am

CarterB wrote:Take the bus!! More frequent and drops you right off at the Casinos.

also takes literally twice as long
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