How much time between arrivals on a specific track at NYP?

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How much time between arrivals on a specific track at NYP?

Postby NIMBYkiller » Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:16 pm

Imagine thruput of the North River tubes was not an issue. How much dwell time would/does NJT budget between each arrival on any given track at NYP? In other words, how many minutes after train A arrives on track 12 could train B arrive on the same track?
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Re: How much time between arrivals on a specific track at NY

Postby EuroStar » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:04 am

The answer to this question is more complex than you expect. There is a big difference what is theoretically possible and what is achieved in practice.

In terms of arrivals on a through track (such as 12) you could in theory exceed 12tph or less than 5 minutes per train. That, of course, requires that you bring every train to the yard in Sunnyside and that you have unimpeded use of an East River tunnel. In practical terms 5tph arrivals in the morning rush hour is likely the limit on a through track and achieving it for more than two tracks during the same time period seems impossible to me. On the dead-end tracks 1-4 the limits is likely 4tph because the trains need to reverse either into yard A, D or E or go out back through the tunnels. Again, there is no way to achieve the 4tph for all 4 tracks at the same time.

During rush hour the LIRR probably has higher tph than NJT because they pretty much have two East River tunnels to themselves and have four track leads into the West Side Yard. I would not be surprised if some of the LIRR tracks regularly see 6tph or more during the morning rush hour. Maybe someone more familiar with LIRR operations could give us more insight.
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Re: How much time between arrivals on a specific track at NY

Postby ExCon90 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:03 pm

Where the through tracks are concerned, there's also the question of how long it takes for all passengers to leave the platform before the next train comes in; the existing platforms were designed for an era of long trains of Pullmans with about 20 to 27 passengers per car. Ten-car trains of multilevels were not contemplated. Is there an estimate of how long it takes to clear the 11-12 platform after arrival of a train of maximum length, assuming there isn't a train on the other track?
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Re: How much time between arrivals on a specific track at NY

Postby andrewjw » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:09 pm

ExCon90 wrote:Where the through tracks are concerned, there's also the question of how long it takes for all passengers to leave the platform before the next train comes in; the existing platforms were designed for an era of long trains of Pullmans with about 20 to 27 passengers per car. Ten-car trains of multilevels were not contemplated. Is there an estimate of how long it takes to clear the 11-12 platform after arrival of a train of maximum length, assuming there isn't a train on the other track?

I wouldn't be surprised if it is less. Typical passengers on MLVs have almost no luggage and are prepared to exit swiftly, whereas the Pullman trains you speak of would spend a significant amount of time at a platform to allow passengers and staff to tend to their luggage, pack up after arriving, etc...
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Re: How much time between arrivals on a specific track at NY

Postby mohawkrailfan » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:35 pm

andrewjw wrote:
ExCon90 wrote:Where the through tracks are concerned, there's also the question of how long it takes for all passengers to leave the platform before the next train comes in; the existing platforms were designed for an era of long trains of Pullmans with about 20 to 27 passengers per car. Ten-car trains of multilevels were not contemplated. Is there an estimate of how long it takes to clear the 11-12 platform after arrival of a train of maximum length, assuming there isn't a train on the other track?

I wouldn't be surprised if it is less. Typical passengers on MLVs have almost no luggage and are prepared to exit swiftly, whereas the Pullman trains you speak of would spend a significant amount of time at a platform to allow passengers and staff to tend to their luggage, pack up after arriving, etc...


Morning rush hour NJT commuters might be prepared to exit swiftly, but they can't do anything but inch along with a crowd too big for the platform and stairs.
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Re: How much time between arrivals on a specific track at NY

Postby JamesRR » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:00 pm

andrewjw wrote:
ExCon90 wrote:Where the through tracks are concerned, there's also the question of how long it takes for all passengers to leave the platform before the next train comes in; the existing platforms were designed for an era of long trains of Pullmans with about 20 to 27 passengers per car. Ten-car trains of multilevels were not contemplated. Is there an estimate of how long it takes to clear the 11-12 platform after arrival of a train of maximum length, assuming there isn't a train on the other track?

I wouldn't be surprised if it is less. Typical passengers on MLVs have almost no luggage and are prepared to exit swiftly, whereas the Pullman trains you speak of would spend a significant amount of time at a platform to allow passengers and staff to tend to their luggage, pack up after arriving, etc...


This is not how it typically goes, though. Many passengers do have luggage often, and it's clunky getting it down the stairs. The MLVs take a long time to empty, because of the the two levels - it takes a while to get people up or down the stairs. Factor in the sheer volume of people emptying out of 10 MLVs, and the very narrow platforms at Penn fill up fast.

Then, factor in that some of the escalators are running the wrong way. On top of all that, there might be another train emptying across the platform - or even worse, an Amtrak or NJT train boarding. Which puts passengers coming down fighting those going up.

As others have mentioned, the station was not designed to handle commuter volume outside of the LIRR tracks. The platforms are too narrow, and the Exit concourse is not used solely for exiting (and the main concourse is no longer used solely for boarding). Whatever is theoretically possible regarding train capacity per hour from a signaling/movement POV has to factor in emptying the platforms of passengers.
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