NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby Silverliner II » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:33 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:meanwhile in Canada they are finally reducing hours of service from 18 hours per day to 12 ?? go figure.

18 hours? I need to read up on their regulations. A friend of mine has been an engineer for CP for the past 15 years in various places between Toronto and Hornepayne, Ontario, and they worked 12-hour limits except in extreme winter weather situations that forced them to go to an 18 max.
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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby DutchRailnut » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:00 pm

If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby Silverliner II » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:13 pm

Holy...... 18 hours "at their discretion".... now that part is the key phrase. I wonder if the 12 is the mandatory limit, before the extra discretionary 6 hours, and now they want to make it 12 hours, period, no exceptions. That's what I need to look up.
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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby electricron » Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:47 am

Worker fatigue wouldn't be a problem if employers, in this case transit agencies, paid a living wage for their area. People should not work more than 12 hours in a day, nor more than 72 hours in a week.

I have sleep apnea, it was difficult to admit I had the problem myself, it was fellow workers that diagnose it, and my boss suggested I visit a doctor to check it out. Sleeping in a lab overnight hooked up to instruments twice before getting a final diagnostic isn't comfortable to experience. Having a cpac and actually getting a good night sleep afterwards is worth it, it saved my career and life. Looking back, I was dozing off many times every day, seconds of my life lost each and every time.

That's the problem with having just one person in the cab, there's no one around to catch you nodding of or snoring catching your breathe when standing or sitting upright. I'll always believe having two humans in the cab is best for safety. There's many reasons why. The push for having an internal camera isn't going to catch this if the video isn't looked at until after an accident. That video needs to be watched occasionally before there is an accident. But I'm not sure the union folks will allow that invasion of privacy.
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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby Silverliner II » Thu Nov 24, 2016 7:15 am

electricron wrote:The push for having an internal camera isn't going to catch this if the video isn't looked at until after an accident. That video needs to be watched occasionally before there is an accident. But I'm not sure the union folks will allow that invasion of privacy.

And even if it was allowed, there is no guarantee that an authorized person would tune in to a camera of a given train in time to see somebody nodded off at the controls, and even if there were... there is nothing they could do to stop a train, short of calling the proper train dispatcher to drop the next interlocking signal on them and letting PTC (once active) stop the train if an unanswered alertor has not done so already. And there is no guarantee that something tragic would not have already happened, like rear-ending a train ahead in the next automatic block (in non-cab signal territory, which PTC would not prevent, since the preceding intermediate/automatic signal would be a Restricting aspect, and not a Stop Signal).

The recent head-on of two CSX trains in Florida is proof yet again that while two sets of eyes in the cab can be better, it does not always prevent tragedy. The engineer has admitted to investigators to falling asleep before the collision. Granted that is information that was likely not supposed to be released to the press, but nevertheless it is now out there. And that now brings up the question of why did the conductor not observe the situation and pull the emergency brake on his side before the stop signal?

So many what-ifs, and answers that are yet to come...
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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby Head-end View » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:25 pm

Because the conductor was probably asleep too. And that shoots holes in the 2-person in-the-cab argument.
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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby Ken W2KB » Thu Nov 24, 2016 9:50 pm

electricron wrote: That video needs to be watched occasionally before there is an accident. But I'm not sure the union folks will allow that invasion of privacy.


If the FRA adopts regulations to that effect, the unions will be powerless to prevent it. Moreover, it is well settled in the law that there is no expectation of privacy in the workplace. For example, an employer is entitled to read all files and emails on a workplace computer system including personal emails if the employee uses the company computer for personal business, not just company business.
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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby Head-end View » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:10 pm

I don't entirely buy the argument that the engineer's cab carries no expectation of privacy. Yes, it is a workplace but even some workplace locations might carry some expectation. Such as say the locker room in a police or fire station. I don't think they could legally put a camera there. Agreed, that's not the same as an engineer's cab, but my point is that even some workplaces might carry some expectation. It should be judged on a case-by-case basis. I hope the train-operators' unions will insist on some reasonable restrictions, yet to be worked out.
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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby Ken W2KB » Fri Nov 25, 2016 7:37 pm

Correct in that locker and bathrooms are the only two exempt areas. Locomotive cabs are not private. Again, if there are regulations adopted by federal or state entities with jurisdiction, the unions have no voice in the matter. Unions can comment in the rulemaking process, but that's it if regulations are adopted.
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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby Head-end View » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:03 pm

Even if the FRA makes a regulation, that doesn't mean the BLE and other transit unions couldn't kick up a pretty big storm that could include job actions or even wildcat strikes. They might be able to force the Feds to back down. But if not, they could still negotiate contract provisions that would affect the cameras' usage for investigations and disciplinary matters.
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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby DutchRailnut » Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:14 pm

The BLE or any other union, is not going to do that, cause media would turn on them for impeding safety.
The only thing the unions can do, is negotiate rules of what can be done with images and penalties for abuse or unauthorized disclosure.
the precedent has been set, Amtrak is putting them in, MetroLink has them, Metro North and LIRR are installing them.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby nomis » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:32 am

"Please stand by, The engineer has to walk back 6 cars to get to a working rest-room. Your trip while sitting at a station stop will be delayed approx 15-20 minutes. Thank you for riding AmTransit of America and enjoy your journey to the basement of New York City"
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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby Ken W2KB » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:30 pm

Head-end View wrote:Even if the FRA makes a regulation, that doesn't mean the BLE and other transit unions couldn't kick up a pretty big storm that could include job actions or even wildcat strikes. They might be able to force the Feds to back down. But if not, they could still negotiate contract provisions that would affect the cameras' usage for investigations and disciplinary matters.


A strike for the purpose of contesting compliance with a regulation such as you suggest would constitute a violation of the National Labor Relations Act and subject the union and its participating members to sanctions. The ability to negotiate for usage for investigation and disciplinary matter would depend on the precise language of the regulation. The negotiations could not limit usage mandated by a regulation.
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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby South Jersey Budd » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:56 pm

SEPTA's ACSES system is being programmed to enforce a 5mph maximum authorized speed approaching all bumpers. I do not believe it will be a positive stop, just a permanent speed restriction of 5mph. The 5mph restriction is now in service on the Airport Line for testing.
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Re: NJT HOBOKEN TERMINAL ACCIDENT THREAD

Postby South Jersey Budd » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:59 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:The BLE or any other union, is not going to do that, cause media would turn on them for impeding safety.
The only thing the unions can do, is negotiate rules of what can be done with images and penalties for abuse or unauthorized disclosure.
the precedent has been set, Amtrak is putting them in, MetroLink has them, Metro North and LIRR are installing them.


SEPTA has installed inward facing cameras on 2/3 of their fleet. The SLV's were first to get them and now the older GE cars are being equipped.
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