The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby SecaucusJunction » Sun May 14, 2017 10:33 pm

I thought I remembered the original plan was to have 2 pairs of super express trains to Harriman. The second pair never materialized.

Also, the article said that west of Middletown would see the same service levels as they do now.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby trainbrain » Mon May 15, 2017 11:26 am

Was that article from MTA? I'd be surprised if there wasn't going to be at least one additional trip going past Middletown because people at those stations wouldn't support the improvements. Right now, Otisville and Port Jervis have basically zero mid day service going outbound. There's nothing between train 45 and 51. 64 is the last afternoon departure going inbound until 68 which is about 8 hours later. My guess is 47 and 49 start terminating at the new yard and another trip gets added to go all the way to Port Jervis.

Edit: The Wikipedia article says that there will be one additional Port Jervis trip made. Most trains using the yard will actually terminate at Middletown and run empty back to the yard.
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby trainbrain » Wed May 24, 2017 12:24 pm

Trying to figure out which eastbound express trains run on the westbound track. I don't believe any westbound express trains ever run on the eastbound track.

Train 50 doesn't make any stops after Harriman, and I know it switches to the westbound track at Sloatsburg so it can pass train 1154, which I believe occurs between Ramsey Route 17 and Ramsey Main Street.

Train 46 switches to the westbound track immediately after departing Suffern, so it can pass train 1150 which I believe occurs just before the 3 track section. It has to meet train 1103 soon after, so I'm guessing that if train 46 is late, they have to hold 1103 at Waldwick to wait for it to clear. It actually boards at Route 17 on the westbound platform. Didn't look like anyone was accidently on the eastbound platform when I rode it last week, so I guess it's well announced that "The 6:32 express train to Hoboken receives passengers on the westbound track".

Train 44 is scheduled in a similar way, but is one minute later in relation to the local (1148) than 46. I noticed a multilevel set in Suffern signed as 1152, which has to deadhead out to Suffern, so that might be an opposing move that conflicts with 44. Not sure if the 1 minute difference is enough for it to be able to use the normal eastbound track and pass 1148 at Waldwick.
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby SecaucusJunction » Wed May 24, 2017 1:08 pm

This is giving me a headache....... I think when they yanked the two tracks around 1986, it was never intended to have the current levels of service. I think the Metro North service to Port Jervis was minimal around then and there were probably no express trains. Maybe they were also trying to discourage freight traffic? I know there was basically no eastbound service west of Waldwick from around 6pm until after 9pm on weeknights, as most westbound trains turning in Waldwick would use track 2 instead of pulling into the yard. I'm not sure if, around them, Waldwick yard was even used.

A third track would do wonders, but again, they'd have to find some way to board at Route 17.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby trainbrain » Wed May 24, 2017 1:22 pm

I believe off peak Port Jervis service was a shuttle up until they got the Comet V's.

If they add a 3rd track they certainly won't be making an additional platform at Route 17. The station has enough room for a 3rd express track, not a 3rd platform track. I'm guessing the peak hour express trains won't stop at Route 17 once that happens.

I agree it was pretty stupid and short sighted to pull out the other two tracks in the 80's.

I don't think any trains are stored at Waldwick overnight. It is only used to turn trains. The areas trains are stored at are Port Jervis, Suffern, and Hoboken.
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby EuroStar » Wed May 24, 2017 2:02 pm

Are there any sets that stay overnight in Suffern? If they already have the ability to start a set at Suffern, why aren't they overnighting more of them there? It is not as if NS is utilizing the yard all that much given how few freight customers are left. Is this a case of: we don't have $2 million of capital money to improve the yard, so we will spend $0.5 million per year deadheading sets back and forth to Hoboken? Of course, I have no idea what the actual numbers are.
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby trainbrain » Wed May 24, 2017 2:41 pm

I'm pretty sure based on my own research and posts made earlier on this site that 6 sets overnight at Suffern. They finish on trains 1171, 1125, 1131, 1183, 1133, and 1101. The sets that run on 1173 and 1129 deadhead back to Hoboken, and everything else is either too early to be a finish or has a revenue return. I don't really think they have enough room to store any more trains there, and there are only two full runs back to Hoboken that are deadheads. Also I believe there are also two full deadhead runs in the morning (supplying the equipment for 1152 and 1158). Most of the reverse peak deadhead runs only go to Waldwick.
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby EuroStar » Thu May 25, 2017 6:37 am

Ha, 6 sets is more than I guessed.
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby SecaucusJunction » Thu May 25, 2017 7:21 am

6 sets at Suffern could be right. It is hard to tell as the amount of time that all of the sets would be in the yard is limited to the wee hours of the morning. Even on weekends, the yard is somewhat empty as some sets are brought back to Hoboken for maintenance.

NJT has not stored trains overnight in Waldwick since the mid-80's (with the exception of hurricane events). I believe this has to do with NJT not wanting to spend money on security in the area while the sets can be deadheaded back to Hoboken to be used on other runs.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby trainbrain » Thu May 25, 2017 7:43 am

With more express service likely once the new Port Jervis Line yard is added, I'm wondering how they can handle scheduling east of Ridgewood. Probably need to change around the deadhead moves so that they'd be able to use one of the inbound tracks as an express track for certain express trains.
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby trainbrain » Thu May 25, 2017 8:10 am

SecaucusJunction wrote:6 sets at Suffern could be right. It is hard to tell as the amount of time that all of the sets would be in the yard is limited to the wee hours of the morning. Even on weekends, the yard is somewhat empty as some sets are brought back to Hoboken for maintenance.

NJT has not stored trains overnight in Waldwick since the mid-80's (with the exception of hurricane events). I believe this has to do with NJT not wanting to spend money on security in the area while the sets can be deadheaded back to Hoboken to be used on other runs.


I figured out that 6 sets overnight at Suffern by first figuring out all the sets with revenue runs back to Hoboken. Anything that doesn't has to either go to the yard or deadhead back to Hoboken. Then just figure out what sets deadhead to Hoboken and the rest overnight at Suffern. It also helps to match up the number that you find to the morning schedule, and it seems to work about perfectly with 6 sets.
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby EuroStar » Thu May 25, 2017 2:14 pm

trainbrain wrote:With more express service likely once the new Port Jervis Line yard is added, I'm wondering how they can handle scheduling east of Ridgewood. Probably need to change around the deadhead moves so that they'd be able to use one of the inbound tracks as an express track for certain express trains.

I imagine they can pick one of the lines, Main or Bergen, and send the deadheads over its inbound track while using the inbound track of the other line for the expresses. The problem is that whichever line gets the expresses loses the local off-peak service in the opposite direction.

Speaking of Ridgewood, the state rail plan has something about reworking Ridgewood Junction to allow parallel moves. I cannot figure out what that means -- what exactly do they want to do there that they could not do now? This is a mystery to me.
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby CentralValleyRail » Thu May 25, 2017 2:52 pm

Trainbrain,

Some of the things that you are posting are incorrect... While your love and passion for scheduling are obvious and a warm welcome to see, some of the ramblings that you make are not accurate. I'm not going to nit-pick but please collect all your thoughts before sharing them like a diary.

And SJ X52 does not generally come thru SUF at 1:30pm

And as for the Woodbury Commons they are not going to make a stop for 1 day a year. 20 years ago maybe... NJT can't even put more than 3 extra trains for a golf tournament that attracted 500,000 people. Online retailers are putting malls out of business even with the recent improvement to WC the shelf life isn't long...
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby trainbrain » Thu May 25, 2017 3:35 pm

CentralValleyRail wrote:Trainbrain,

Some of the things that you are posting are incorrect... While your love and passion for scheduling are obvious and a warm welcome to see, some of the ramblings that you make are not accurate. I'm not going to nit-pick but please collect all your thoughts before sharing them like a diary.

And as for the Woodbury Commons they are not going to make a stop for 1 day a year. 20 years ago maybe... NJT can't even put more than 3 extra trains for a golf tournament that attracted 500,000 people. Online retailers are putting malls out of business even with the recent improvement to WC the shelf life isn't long...


Everything I mentioned about trains 46 and 50 is stuff I've seen in person. I wasn't 100% sure about 44, and I didn't claim any absolutes about it.

Since they just expanded the Harriman parking lot, there's no way it gets moved now, and they also would not be making an additional stop at WC. The shuttle bus they have now is fine, and can be expanded or better advertised if need be, and ShortLine already runs express bus service to/from NYC and it's probably quicker than the train when it isn't a Sunday evening or Black Friday.
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Re: The Main/Bergen/Port Jervis Line Thread

Postby SecaucusJunction » Thu May 25, 2017 3:37 pm

If not X52, what is the eastbound deadhead that goes east around that time?
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.
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