MLV EMU Procurement

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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:33 am

Matt Johnson wrote:
JamesRR wrote:Fascinating info. In any event, it will be a very streamlined operation - eventually, the whole fleet will be multi-level; the only major visual difference among trains in the system will be some powered by a loco and some independently powered. I can't think of another passenger RR that has both PP and EMU equipment using nearly identical coaches like this.


And Comet V? The Vs seem too young to retire any time soon, but I could see them relegated to Pascack Valley and Port Jervis service.


NJT Fleet Plan doesn't have the last of the flats purged until 2025 when the V's are rebuild-age, and that's the date that syncs with MNRR's next projected West-of-Hudson procurement. So your hunch is probably correct about where they'll be grouped after the IIM's and IV's are gone.
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby EuroStar » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:35 am

F-line, what you are saying rings true to me, but the document states the opposite. From page 10:
This approach also allows NJ TRANSIT to use Multilevel coaches that were previously purchased to expand service to instead serve as the second and third non-power unit in a new three car sub-consist

This makes me wonder whether the idea is to have the new unpowered MLV III be MU compatible and captive to the long 8+ MU consists on the NEC. The unpowered existing MLV I and MLV II could be used on three car consists -- one new powered and two existing unpowered -- there is no need to MU anything in a three car consist like that. Most of the trains on the Hoboken electric service uses three car Arrow sets now anyway. Maybe the idea is for the old trailers to never be in a MU train to begin with, just in short trains with up to three cars.
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby Zuccaraillo » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:22 pm

One can say that the V's are relatively young but they have had a history of software problems. The IVs are significantly more reliable so it seems the single level fleet may be retired alltogether.

Don't all NJT cars have MU cables that allow the cab car to transmit signals to the locomotives? If that's possible then the MLV EMUs should be backward compatible with the existing cars, maybe a few serving as boosters with ALP-46s.
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:08 am

Zuccaraillo wrote:One can say that the V's are relatively young but they have had a history of software problems. The IVs are significantly more reliable so it seems the single level fleet may be retired alltogether.

Don't all NJT cars have MU cables that allow the cab car to transmit signals to the locomotives? If that's possible then the MLV EMUs should be backward compatible with the existing cars, maybe a few serving as boosters with ALP-46s.


Trailers have pass-thru cables so the loco and the cab car can communicate on opposite ends when the train is in push mode, but the trailers themselves are completely inert in terms of train control. They simply have the electrical hookup for hotel power, the air brake line, and the data cables for PA/PSA, automatic door controls, etc. In an MU consist, all of the cars--including unpowered trailers--talk to each other 2-way in order to coordinate propulsion on any power car that may be positioned anywhere in the consist. The trailers also talk, because unlike a loco-hauled consist where they're an unknown inert mass (e.g. the loco or cab car doesn't care if there's a mixed set of new bi-levels and ancient flats...or how many of each there are) the trailer has to provide data about its properties in order for the MU trainlining to smooth out the ride. That's why unpowered trailers are nearly always manufactured to match their make/model of powered MU's, including and off-shelf coaches are never coupled to an MU (be it an M#, Arrow, Silverliner, ACMU/MP75, RDC, Colorado Railcar, etc.). At least with the RDC, you'd violate the Budd warranty if you ran an RDC coupled with an unpowered any-car because of the excessive wear it would cause.

So with this order there's still something undisclosed about how they plan to do this. The original plan was to do power cars with off-shelf MLV coaches using the same passive trailer connection (2 consecutive trailers for every 1 adjacent power car), but because that forces the power cars to overcorrect for the inert mass the power cars would've been overpowered, extremely complex at the computer level, and heavy. So NJT keeps saying this is not that plan, that this is some form of 'true' MU. If it's a true MU, then it has to have a true MU data connection where the unpowered trailers are capable of active 2-way communication unlike an off-shelf trailer. So the question is how they plan to do that. The most logical solution would be to run 2 types of trainlining connections through an otherwise vanilla MLV trailer: 1 for operating in 'active'-communication MU mode, 1 for operating in regular 'passive'-communication loco-lauled mode. And maybe for 'active' mode there's a small computer onboard just identifying the car's properties...and making sure that they DON'T plug something incompatible like a Comet into the MU set. If BBD's design is clean enough and tests out well enough, you should be able to mass-manufacture fully stock MLV III's with both sets and make them totally universal cars. And possibly re-wire the MLV I & II fleets for it, though that would be a little tougher correcting for evolutionary differences between the batches.

But there's still a lot of detail lacking on exactly how they plan to do this. Things like that contradictory language about wanting the powered MU cars to trainline with the existing MLV fleet and not the next batch. That doesn't answer the "how" question of how these are going to have a true MU connection, and starts to sound a little more like the original rejected "power packs" idea...only they're still saying this is an MU and not a power pack. So we need more information because those little discrepancies are still a head-scratcher.
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby JamesRR » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:33 pm

In NJT's fleet strategy doc, they have a tiny, tiny rendering of a MLV with a pantograph - but it's probably just a Photoshopped image and not a real rendering.

Page 29

http://www.njtransit.com/AdminTemp/njt_ ... et2014.pdf
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby DutchRailnut » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:38 pm

a rendering is not a real thing , kind of like photoshopping a picture..
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby JamesRR » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:42 am

DutchRailnut wrote:a rendering is not a real thing , kind of like photoshopping a picture..


Yes, that's what I thought. But what's interesting is that they bothered to change the window configuration a little. It's not just a pantograph thrown onto a regular MLV.
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby mtuandrew » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:55 pm

You don’t even need Photoshop to make it look realistic: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=155039&hilit=multi%2A&start=90#p1259330
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby MACTRAXX » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:25 pm

Everyone:

From the artist's rendering from the earlier EMU topic pointed out by mtuandrew this reminded
me of the NSW,Australia Intercity V Set EMU operated by Sydney Trains. Note the variety of EMU
cars in their fleet - in particular the similar C,S and K Set fleet. These MU cars operate on 1500
Volts DC - the same voltage as Metra Electric and the South Shore Line in the Chicago area use.

http://www.sydneytrains.info/about/fleet/

More then likely new multilevel MU cars would be either just like the previous multilevel cars or
perhaps similar to Sydney's V Set fleet...

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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:46 pm

The official Request for Proposals has been quietly issued: http://www.njtransit.com/tm/tm_servlet. ... CalendarTo. "RFP 17-012" under FY2018.

Bid proposals are due back from prospective manufacturers on Feb. 15, and there is a pre-bid conference call scheduled on Nov. 30. NJT's website doesn't give links to the actual bid docs, but those usually get simulcast on other gov't bid websites so they should be findable online pretty soon if you want to delve into the nitty-gritty specs and see if they answer some of the open questions posed on the last couple pages of this thread about just how "off-shelf" the trainlining electronics are going to be with non-powered trailers and/or stock MLV coaches.
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