NYSW Passenger Service Restoration

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cruiser939
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by cruiser939 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:43 pm

amtrakowitz wrote:
I'm real glad to know that you're "pounding" the ground out there drumming up support and that you have some fans on facebook. You do realize that some pretty hideous organizations such as terrorist groups have fans on facebook also right?
That's a new one, comparing railfans to terrorists.
No where did I say railfans are terrorist. That is one atrocious leap on your part. Because of your selective quoting, you have distorted what I said. The clarifying point which I said was "Having fans there [meaning facebook] doesn't really add credibility".
To loosely quote Capt. Jack Aubrey from the movie Master and Commander: "NJT runs a railroad, not a private yacht! WE DO NOT HAVE TIME FOR YOUR DAMNED HOBBIES, SIR!"

Originator of Jeff Smith rules!
Cruiser "Awesome Justice Train Freedom America" 939

cruiser939
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by cruiser939 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:19 pm

uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:If you want to say rude things that you think will be hurtful to me but will help make your point, I encourage you to do so, either on here or by pm.
No need. I think you've proven just how flustered you can get by going back and forth with me here...thinking you know everything under the sun about the railroad industry. Employee or not, you are not the end-all authority.
Flustered? I'm not sure how going back and forth with you proves that. Btw, "back and forth" implies a two way conversation. If you assume that I'm flustered because I keep responding wouldn't that mean you are equally flustered? I've never claimed to be an end all authority on the railroad industry here, but my status as an actual employee does mean I know more about what goes into planning, constructing, and operating a service than you do as a railfan.
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:I'm a big boy, I can handle being called names which apparently you can't. Every time the word railfan or foamer get's thrown out it's like the end of the world with you. You are always preaching "but it will help".
I once again ask you to refer back to the census data I posted on the other thread. I can't get any more clearer then that.

As for being called a "railfan" or "foamer." Railfan I am better with...albeit I am not a person who goes out of his way to take pictures or ride trains...but I like to keep up with the news in the field, look at the pictures and STUDY the alternatives out there to come to a conclusion on whether or not something will work.

Foamer is a derogatory term which has been around on the internet for quite a long time. I doubt you even know what it means.
I've already explained to you both publicly and via pm why the census data that you use as your only evidence is not proper. Essentially, all the massive spreadsheets that you linked to showed was that generally, people commuted from NW NJ towards NYC for work. Wow! That really adds a lot to this matter, as if everybody here didn't already know that. The majority of people in northern NJ share that same commuting habit. I guess it's time that we link every single town with a rail network because the spreadsheet said that people commute towards NYC.

Foamer is not a derogatory term. I've only ever used it, or seen it used, to describe someone who is an excessively enthusiastic railfan. If there is some other meaning to the word that you know of that insults you, please tell me about it instead of being so mysterious with it. If you noticed, I remembered that you whined and complained last time I called you a foamer and have only referred to you as a railfan in this conversation AFAIK. See? I'm trying to play nice.
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:Sooner or later you'll have to face the fact that just helping isn't always a good enough cause. Why is it that you think spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a service that will barely run and will take a few cars off the road is such a good idea? Because those few cars are no longer there so traffic will ease all of a sudden? Come on dude...
See, your problem cruiser is that you have a one-track mind. I have made my arguments for this service clear... several key points that are pretty compelling and have raw data to support them. I believe you (and only you) are skewed. The other NJT employees have either had logical thoughts, or have not tried to break the ideals of people. You like to try and deconstruct people's views...and if they happen to disagree with you, you continue to push it until all out arguments break out. Sometimes, it's fun... but there comes a time where a person like you needs to look beyond the general information you have, and challenge your perceptions. You accuse me of foaming at every project and not forming logical arguments, I can accuse you of being rigid and self-centered in your own method of thinking... and while I don't expect people on this board to just come out and agree with it, i'm sure there are people that see it.
Your arguments for this service is essentially that there's traffic on rt. 23 and that rail service would alleviate that traffic. My arguments against the project is essentially that any minor reduction in traffic on rt. 23 that might result from this project is not worth the hundreds of millions of dollars to the taxpayers; especially when weighed against other, more beneficial projects. I find it funny that you accuse me of being "self-centered" in my method of thinking when I'm the person saying that the project doesn't benefit enough people and that we should be considering projects that benefit the most amount of people; while you're the one whose all gung-ho on this project because you're from NW NJ and have idled in traffic more times than you can remember in rt.23. It sure seems like you are the person who is being self-centered to me with their support but what do I know?
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:What's ironic is that many of the projects listed that you don't support are actually good projects that have huge benefits. I know it shouldn't come as a surprise to me since you throw your heart and soul behind every stupid little rinky-dink project that get's mentioned, but perhaps there's something greater to be learned here. Maybe you are like the anti-progress railfan? That'd make you somewhat unique I guess.
There are benefits with these projects. I disagree with implementation, terminus, etc. ARC was one big example which bluntly, I am glad was cancelled...There was no support from New York City for this, the terminus would have been far away from critical business centers, and the price tag and terms for the State of New Jersey would have been too high. Economic benefits? Unknown...as we are officially in a double dip recession (or depending on who you talk to, we never got out of the first recession) and I doubt that capacity would have met demand quickly enough to off-set the costs.
While I agree that the ARC project was definitely altered way too much from the original plan, the fact (and we can all debate this in another thread) remains that the tangible benefits to the transportation infrastructure were great. No, it wasn't everything that was hoped for or originally planned. Yes, the cost of the project needed to be better defined with more strict controls. But the impact of such an infrastructure upgrade would have added much reliability to a system that is plagued with problems. You have no further to look than last week's miserable string of events to see how ARC could still have helped the region.
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:Jiminy Cricket! Will you stop with the stupid challenges already!
Why? Not keen on taking them?
No, I'm not keen on taking them. They're stupid and do nothing to bolster your points. I challenge you to run face first into a brick wall repeatedly. This will demonstrate what trying to reason with you on rr.net is like. Keen on taking that one?
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:I know there's traffic there, what will me sitting in it accomplish?
If it were just you, nothing. If it were you, along with politicians, citizens, the North Jersey Transportation Planning Authority, the NJ Association of Railroad Passengers, Chambers of Commerce, and of course, historical societies, then we have a chance.
Again, what will me sitting in traffic accomplish? If you have politicians doing it then why do you need me to? I don't influence what the politicians do. It's vice versa, they determine what I do. Give them your stupid challenges, not me; it's pointless.
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:There's traffic all over the state. Should silly little services have money thrown at them everywhere there is traffic now?
If the study is warranted, then yes.
Do you not see the waste in this? There are dozens of traffic problem stops all over the region. Will you be as blindly loyal to all of them as you are for this project? After all, I'm sure the census data will show that many people arer trying to commute towards NYC.
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:I'm real glad to know that you're "pounding" the ground out there drumming up support and that you have some fans on facebook. You do realize that some pretty hideous organizations such as terrorist groups have fans on facebook also right? Having fans there doesn't really add credibility. It's reveals a lot about you though that you think the support of 40 random people who demonstrate that ability to click a button trumps the experience of people who do this as a profession...
First of all, the mere fact that you would mention terrorist groups on Facebook, tells me your picture should be right up there with Bin Laden. Why would you even bother mentioning these groups publicly is beyond me. At first, I thought maybe you had some sort of security clearance, but even a person with security clearance (which I know quite a number of) would exercise more restraint then you in this instance. I can speculate on other motives, but I digress.

Second of all, I am going to be blunt...as I am in the Marketing field, what you said about credibility on Facebook is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. If Social Media outlets such as Facebook did not generate some sort of credibility for community groups, volunteer organizations, and name brands, then people like myself would not be using them to further causes. There are dark sides to Social Media (i.e. riots in London) but in the end, social media is there for organizations and movements to build credibility and get the word out faster. The Facebook page in question was actually mentioned in an article...which builds enough credibility in my opinion.
To respond to your misguided first point, why would simply saying the words terrorist group imply that my picture should go up next to Bin Laden's? I didn't mention any by name nor did I comment on any's cause. I'm not sure where you're going with the whole security clearance thing but I'd venture a guess that most people who discuss terrorism in the world do not hold such a clearance. I'm not sure what your speculations on "other motives" could be but you sure come off sounding like the most idiotic person I've interacted with here.

To your second point, if you are truly in the marketing field then you should know to be wary of social media. Yes, there can be good groups; just like there can be bad groups. I'm not saying that your group is bad but the fact there is a group with "fans" doesn't mean that your cause is a good one. That was my point about there being support for terrorist groups on facebook pages. Just because people click a "like" button shouldn't be interpreted as meaning that those people are correct or know what they're talking about. There are groups on facebook that both support and condemn Casey Anthony, are they both right or good? That a newspaper mentioned your page doesn't mean it's credible nor does it mean that it isn't. To illustrate my point, there's a facebook page supporting Muammar Gaddafi that has the exact same number of supporters as your group. Does this group hold the same weight as yours? What if some random journalist was to do a piece on the controversy and mentioned that there are those who actually support the guy and than mentioned this facebook page. Would that then give credibility to the cause as you claim getting mentioned in an article did for your group? Furthermore, just because someone "likes" you on facebook doesn't mean that they know wtf is even going on. I can choose to "like" a page about stem-cell research. In so doing can the author of the page site me as a knowledgeable person in the cause simply because I clicked a button. If so (which is what you seem to be doing) they would be sorely mistaken as I really don't know too much on the subject nor do I have any real opinions; all I did was click a button. You're reading way too much into this social media thing in my opinion.
uzplayer wrote:
cruiser939 wrote:Who says it has to run into Hoboken? Are you honestly saying that you think it shouldn't? If so, you might be more misguided than I originally thought. Where (in your great service planning experience of course) would you have this service terminate and how, if it was anywhere other than Hoboken, would it make sense?
I will correct myself in this instance. It should run and terminate at the city centers where it will provide the most benefit...Hoboken being one. Someone on the Facebook page mentioned something about tracks under the Lincoln Tunnel that are still in tact and ultimately, could be used for this purpose to make a park and ride style station, but I think it is far fetched.

In this instance, I am not familiar with the rules centering on having NJT employees versus NYSW employees run the trains. I do know that NJT has a 99 year easement on the tracks (if I remember correctly) so running service on the NYSW is possible for NJT employees...
That person who you're talking about on the page said service should use the tracks under the "Lincoln Tunnel approach" which doesn't make sense. The only tracks around the Lincoln Tunnel approach is the HBLR. and the NYS&W owns no track in the area. They used to operate through the tunnel to Edgewater which is well north of the area. I'm not sure if this is what the person was trying to talk about but that tunnel is in dismal shape and getting it returned to service would be near impossible/wildly expensive which I know is of no concern to you. This just further goes to illustrate my point about not putting too much faith in people just because the are a member of a facebook group or click a "like" button.
To loosely quote Capt. Jack Aubrey from the movie Master and Commander: "NJT runs a railroad, not a private yacht! WE DO NOT HAVE TIME FOR YOUR DAMNED HOBBIES, SIR!"

Originator of Jeff Smith rules!
Cruiser "Awesome Justice Train Freedom America" 939

dano23
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by dano23 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:29 pm

These posts are way too long now for me to want to jump in lol.

NYSW3022
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by NYSW3022 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:12 pm

My head hurts after reading all the back and forth. Bottom line this is a losing project. There are more important things to be spending money on. Besides has anyone noticed the total lack of work on the Hackensak to Hawthorne service? At this point I believe it's been shelved, so what chance does this have to succeed? 40 people like it on facebook. That's real political capital right there...

And another point about the Facebook page that's been hailed by one man as the voice of the people. This page has been around since April of 2010 and has 43 'likes' 43, in 15 months. Active discussions have taken place among 4 'fans' only recently and the owner of the group hasn't identified themselves, that itself hurts the legitimacy in my opinion.

Some other Facebook pages that speak for the people:

Hipster Hitler: 74,617 "Likes"
Nazi Zombies: 101,503 "Likes"
I Can Has Cheezburger?: 12,599 "Likes" (This is a personal favorite of mine)
Starfleet Academy, yes the fictional academy of the fictional Star Fleet of the fictional Star Trek Universe: 864 (Kinda surprised this wasn't higher actually)
Jedi: Yes, a fictional pseudo religion of the equally fictitious Star Wars Universe: 50,688.

To say that the NYSW passenger page is lost in a rather unique crowd is a real understatement. Basically what I'm trying to say is, if no one is taking a page where 50,688 people like it seriously, they're not taking yours seriously either.

uzplayer
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by uzplayer » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:53 pm

cruiser939 wrote: Please do not selectively quote me and uzplayer pay attention here too. What I've said and what you assumed are to separate things. I said "You don't seem to understand that I am well aware of the traffic situations. Not just there but at several key areas around the state. It's kind of part of my job." Does the word monitor appear there at all? No. Therefore when when you or uzplayer thinks that I'm saying that monitoring traffic patterns is part of my job, you are both wrong. I even further clarified what I meant by adding "All I said was that I am aware of where there are traffic problems around the state and that knowledge is part of what allows me to effectively do my job". Somehow though, you conveniently left that part out of your post and that isn't good enough for uzplayer because he still assumes that I said monitor somewhere in my initial response. Oh well...
Actually, yes. It did. I think you should re-read what you posted.

And I will continue to selectively quote you. You talk about information on how this service is not viable? Other people are posting facts, participating in the discussion and not acting as rude as you are.

Uzi-Cat
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by Uzi-Cat » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:03 am

"Calgon, take me away..."

Does anyone remember THAT commercial?
"All I wanted was a Pepsi!"

uzplayer
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by uzplayer » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:07 am

NYSW3022 wrote:My head hurts after reading all the back and forth. Bottom line this is a losing project. There are more important things to be spending money on. Besides has anyone noticed the total lack of work on the Hackensak to Hawthorne service? At this point I believe it's been shelved, so what chance does this have to succeed? 40 people like it on facebook. That's real political capital right there...

And another point about the Facebook page that's been hailed by one man as the voice of the people. This page has been around since April of 2010 and has 43 'likes' 43, in 15 months. Active discussions have taken place among 4 'fans' only recently and the owner of the group hasn't identified themselves, that itself hurts the legitimacy in my opinion.

Some other Facebook pages that speak for the people:

Hipster Hitler: 74,617 "Likes"
Nazi Zombies: 101,503 "Likes"
I Can Has Cheezburger?: 12,599 "Likes" (This is a personal favorite of mine)
Starfleet Academy, yes the fictional academy of the fictional Star Fleet of the fictional Star Trek Universe: 864 (Kinda surprised this wasn't higher actually)
Jedi: Yes, a fictional pseudo religion of the equally fictitious Star Wars Universe: 50,688.

To say that the NYSW passenger page is lost in a rather unique crowd is a real understatement. Basically what I'm trying to say is, if no one is taking a page where 50,688 people like it seriously, they're not taking yours seriously either.
I will admit it started off slow. However, many community efforts such as this do. The change in government in Vernon started with two people. Over two years time, they grew to a few thousand, then the majority of the town. Will it be this fast with this effort? Maybe, maybe not. I do know that there are some good people dedicated to the effort that want to see this succeed.

uzplayer
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by uzplayer » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:56 am

cruiser939 wrote: Flustered? I'm not sure how going back and forth with you proves that. Btw, "back and forth" implies a two way conversation. If you assume that I'm flustered because I keep responding wouldn't that mean you are equally flustered? I've never claimed to be an end all authority on the railroad industry here, but my status as an actual employee does mean I know more about what goes into planning, constructing, and operating a service than you do as a railfan.
As I said, I study the alternatives and come to a conclusion backed by the facts available to me. There are always additional pieces of information which should actually be public.. As NJT is a public entity, and with its studies falling under the "Freedom of Information Act," maybe you should start posting some links and pdf's to these studies to back up what you are saying.
cruiser939 wrote:I've already explained to you both publicly and via pm why the census data that you use as your only evidence is not proper. Essentially, all the massive spreadsheets that you linked to showed was that generally, people commuted from NW NJ towards NYC for work. Wow! That really adds a lot to this matter, as if everybody here didn't already know that. The majority of people in northern NJ share that same commuting habit. I guess it's time that we link every single town with a rail network because the spreadsheet said that people commute towards NYC.
Ok then... If you believe that you have access to better, more reliable data, then please feel free to post a direct link to this thread. Otherwise, stop quoting so-called informational pieces and backing it up by the fact that you are an "NJT employee." There are plenty of NJT employees on this forum that make a much more concise and logical argument versus you. Do you see me going back and forth with anyone else in this message board other than you? That should tell you something.
cruiser939 wrote:Foamer is not a derogatory term. I've only ever used it, or seen it used, to describe someone who is an excessively enthusiastic railfan. If there is some other meaning to the word that you know of that insults you, please tell me about it instead of being so mysterious with it. If you noticed, I remembered that you whined and complained last time I called you a foamer and have only referred to you as a railfan in this conversation AFAIK. See? I'm trying to play nice.
I stand corrected. Back then, the definition of a foamer on the internet was something different. Today, it's exactly what you mentioned.
cruiser939 wrote:Your arguments for this service is essentially that there's traffic on rt. 23 and that rail service would alleviate that traffic. My arguments against the project is essentially that any minor reduction in traffic on rt. 23 that might result from this project is not worth the hundreds of millions of dollars to the taxpayers; especially when weighed against other, more beneficial projects. I find it funny that you accuse me of being "self-centered" in my method of thinking when I'm the person saying that the project doesn't benefit enough people and that we should be considering projects that benefit the most amount of people; while you're the one whose all gung-ho on this project because you're from NW NJ and have idled in traffic more times than you can remember in rt.23. It sure seems like you are the person who is being self-centered to me with their support but what do I know?
If you have been paying attention, the reduction of traffic is not my only argument. Let me re-itemize them for you...something you have yet to even make.

1. It will take multiple cars off the road, helping to save the environment and keep places like Sussex County, Western Passaic County and Northern Morris County nice.
- While this will not be the true "silver bullet," this will assist. The bottom line is that in addition to this rail service, accessibility to other mass transit options such as bus service should be made readily available as well. One possibility is feeding bus service into rail and expanding service going to the Port Authority in concert with the rail service.

2. It will help save the infrastructure and hedge against potential concerns in expansion of roads.
- Politicians made it clear that they do not want to expand the roads going through the three counties in question. Environmental concerns and the "highlands act" also prevents this from happening. Bringing the railroad up to code versus expanding Route 23 will save millions. (Note: I am not an engineer...i'm a business professional... so I am making this assumption off the general data and information I have available to me..unlike you cruiser.)

3. It will provide access to economic opportunities to hundreds of thousands of commuters, who otherwise would not have access appropriately by driving.
- Right now, commuters goto Paterson, Newark, Hoboken / Jersey City and New York. Additionally, they also go to other places in Bergen and Passaic Counties. This service will provide an additional venue for accessing new opportunities, which might bring a shift in commuting habits and income coming into the counties in question.

4. It will help improve home values of the surrounding communities.
- Studies have shown that access to rail service (and specifically rail service in New Jersey) has had a positive effect on home values. With the amount of foreclosures throughout three counties, the business case is that providing access through an enhanced mass transit network in the area...starting with the restoration of the NYSW will make the area a more affordable and attractive place to live for the general commuter, thus taking housing inventory off the market and increasing the tax base of towns at a very critical time when government finances are on the minds of everyone. (In other words, it's a business investment...something which you do not seem to understand)
cruiser939 wrote:No, I'm not keen on taking them. They're stupid and do nothing to bolster your points. I challenge you to run face first into a brick wall repeatedly. This will demonstrate what trying to reason with you on rr.net is like. Keen on taking that one? I know there's traffic there, what will me sitting in it accomplish?
And here is why you do not garner any respect from me. If it were the fact that you presented your arguments like a normal person, i'd be more than happy to entertain your facts. But when you make remarks like this, that is where you lose my respect. Do you see anyone else other than yourself acting as belligerent as you?
cruiser939 wrote:Again, what will me sitting in traffic accomplish? If you have politicians doing it then why do you need me to? I don't influence what the politicians do. It's vice versa, they determine what I do. Give them your stupid challenges, not me; it's pointless.
You have absolutely no idea what goes on in community efforts and advocacy. I'm not going to explain it to you again. Do some research on the internet and then come back and see me.
cruiser939 wrote:Do you not see the waste in this? There are dozens of traffic problem stops all over the region. Will you be as blindly loyal to all of them as you are for this project? After all, I'm sure the census data will show that many people arer trying to commute towards NYC.
No.. I do not see any waste in conducting a study...provided that it is done on-time, on-budget and delivers some sort of improvement.

The census data is one of the only sources I have to go off of. Again, you mention there are many so-called hidden NJT studies. If you are so keen and claim to have the insider knowledge you have, then please, enlighten us. Otherwise, you are all talk.
cruiser939 wrote:To respond to your misguided first point, why would simply saying the words terrorist group imply that my picture should go up next to Bin Laden's? I didn't mention any by name nor did I comment on any's cause. I'm not sure where you're going with the whole security clearance thing but I'd venture a guess that most people who discuss terrorism in the world do not hold such a clearance. I'm not sure what your speculations on "other motives" could be but you sure come off sounding like the most idiotic person I've interacted with here.
I could say the same thing about you. In all the threads going back and forth with you, you have tried to berate people like myself and anyone else who wants to see this service restored only on the speculation that you "know" things because you are an "NJT employee." Do everyone a favor and get off your high horse.

As for your mention of terrorist groups on Facebook, i'm still taken aback that you could even bring this type of thing into conversation. Shows the type of person you are.
cruiser939 wrote:To your second point, if you are truly in the marketing field then you should know to be wary of social media. Yes, there can be good groups; just like there can be bad groups. I'm not saying that your group is bad but the fact there is a group with "fans" doesn't mean that your cause is a good one. That was my point about there being support for terrorist groups on facebook pages. Just because people click a "like" button shouldn't be interpreted as meaning that those people are correct or know what they're talking about. There are groups on facebook that both support and condemn Casey Anthony, are they both right or good? That a newspaper mentioned your page doesn't mean it's credible nor does it mean that it isn't. To illustrate my point, there's a facebook page supporting Muammar Gaddafi that has the exact same number of supporters as your group. Does this group hold the same weight as yours? What if some random journalist was to do a piece on the controversy and mentioned that there are those who actually support the guy and than mentioned this facebook page. Would that then give credibility to the cause as you claim getting mentioned in an article did for your group? Furthermore, just because someone "likes" you on facebook doesn't mean that they know wtf is even going on. I can choose to "like" a page about stem-cell research. In so doing can the author of the page site me as a knowledgeable person in the cause simply because I clicked a button. If so (which is what you seem to be doing) they would be sorely mistaken as I really don't know too much on the subject nor do I have any real opinions; all I did was click a button. You're reading way too much into this social media thing in my opinion.
I am very well aware of the issues with social media marketing...moreso then you will ever be.

The page was "liked" mostly by residents... so the credibility is there. Again, it takes a small initiative to start moving forward towards the bigger picture. There are some good people that want to volunteer their time to the cause...so I am not worried about getting a following for this. People will work to make this happen.
cruiser939 wrote:That person who you're talking about on the page said service should use the tracks under the "Lincoln Tunnel approach" which doesn't make sense. The only tracks around the Lincoln Tunnel approach is the HBLR. and the NYS&W owns no track in the area. They used to operate through the tunnel to Edgewater which is well north of the area. I'm not sure if this is what the person was trying to talk about but that tunnel is in dismal shape and getting it returned to service would be near impossible/wildly expensive which I know is of no concern to you. This just further goes to illustrate my point about not putting too much faith in people just because the are a member of a facebook group or click a "like" button.
Hang on one second... See, this WOULD be a logical argument from you IF you did not add the following remarks:
cruiser939 wrote:which I know is of no concern to you.
...and
cruiser939 wrote:This just further goes to illustrate my point about not putting too much faith in people just because the are a member of a facebook group or click a "like" button.
While I will grant that the second remark to some extent might be valid, still, it adds to the negativity. Now... lets try this again without these two items.
cruiser939 wrote:That person who you're talking about on the page said service should use the tracks under the "Lincoln Tunnel approach" which doesn't make sense. The only tracks around the Lincoln Tunnel approach is the HBLR. and the NYS&W owns no track in the area. They used to operate through the tunnel to Edgewater which is well north of the area. I'm not sure if this is what the person was trying to talk about but that tunnel is in dismal shape and getting it returned to service would be near impossible/wildly expensive.
There... See how much better and more concise your point is?

With that said, I will respond to this point. Users always come up with fantasy alternatives...and there is nothing wrong with that. Let the public think about potential possibilities. Are they practical? Not always. In this instance, I agree that the approach would not make sense. Too expensive for the type of service being proposed and it will end up at a destination that would not make sense.
Last edited by uzplayer on Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

dano23
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by dano23 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:39 am

To be honest, the original projections were 1950 riders a day each way and of that, only 430 were from Newfoundland west. Very far from hundreds of thousands. The service is subject to dilution from other close rail lines and even closer stations. For example if you lived in West Milford, you can drop down Skyline Drive and board in Oakland saving around 40 minutes and several dollars a day. If you live in Butler, you can drive to Wayne, Walwick you could drive to Ridgewood, Midland Park drive to Glen Rock. All very easy commutes and short distances.

Bus service to the train would be pointless because there's already a large park and ride in Newfoundland where you can take the bus on a 1 seat trip to the PA with comperable time over the slower train in which you have to transfer at Secaucus Junction. The same goes to interline commuting. None of the stations outside of Paterson are centered near much and the way the schedule works, unless you are going to that point for the entire day, your car is more convenient (the original study had the last train departing Sparta at 742 am first train back from Hoboken 435 pm.)

To be honest, to restudy the study is really a waste.

Jtgshu
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by Jtgshu » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:42 am

Wow finally posts longer than mine! woooot!
On the RR, "believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see"
John, aka "JTGSHU" passed away on August 26, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion to railroading at railroad.net.

railedprograms
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by railedprograms » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:20 am

What ever happened to the results of the last study conducted?
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uzplayer
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by uzplayer » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:41 am

dano23 wrote:To be honest, the original projections were 1950 riders a day each way and of that, only 430 were from Newfoundland west. Very far from hundreds of thousands. The service is subject to dilution from other close rail lines and even closer stations. For example if you lived in West Milford, you can drop down Skyline Drive and board in Oakland saving around 40 minutes and several dollars a day. If you live in Butler, you can drive to Wayne, Walwick you could drive to Ridgewood, Midland Park drive to Glen Rock. All very easy commutes and short distances.
Your geography is a bit off but I see your point. You probably mean Warwick versus Waldwick. :)

Convenience is definitely a factor...and at the end, you have to look at this factor and make a determination. However, the traffic patterns have changed since the 1950's. In the past, west of Newfoundland was more of a vacation spot. With 287 coming into the picture, the landscape of the area has dramatically changed.
dano23 wrote:Bus service to the train would be pointless because there's already a large park and ride in Newfoundland where you can take the bus on a 1 seat trip to the PA with comperable time over the slower train in which you have to transfer at Secaucus Junction. The same goes to interline commuting. None of the stations outside of Paterson are centered near much and the way the schedule works, unless you are going to that point for the entire day, your car is more convenient (the original study had the last train departing Sparta at 742 am first train back from Hoboken 435 pm.)

To be honest, to restudy the study is really a waste.
When I think about integrating bus service into the mix, I am looking at providing more of an intermodal option for commuters. But at the end, convenience does still play a factor. No question on that.

I do not believe the study is a waste. First, terminating at Sparta I believe is a mistake in itself. The terminus needs to be Stockholm / Franklin. Sparta (and for that matter, Vernon residents) can drive or bus to the station easy enough. Second, the data has changed along with the demographics of people living in the area. The old data is skewed. We need a fresh perspective.

dano23
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by dano23 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:18 pm

No I meant Wyckoff to Waldwick/Ridgewood.

And 1950 was total one way riders projected by the 1996 study to be utilizing the service by 2010, not the year 1950.

You cant just say make X the new terminus. There needs to be space for a yard that can hold 5 full trains. Sparta wasn't chosen because somebody liked it, it was chosen because it was the only place where they could find the room to create the facilities. Even in the initial study, Sparta was projected to be one of the lowest utilized stations with Butler being the least.

SecaucusJunction
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by SecaucusJunction » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:38 pm

Yes, I never thought that these trains would get very many riders from anywhere east of Butler. There would be faster, more frequent service with a short drive to the Main/Bergen Lines. The only places that I thought this could work out is between Butler and Sparta, but if ridership was projected to be that low out there, then the whole project would probably have been a flop.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

dano23
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Re: NYSW passenger restoration

Post by dano23 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:13 pm

Actually most of the ridership was predicted east of Butler. 1420 east of Butler, 530 west.

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