NYSW Passenger Service Restoration

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NYSW passenger service restoration

Postby Otto Vondrak » Mon Apr 19, 2004 5:23 pm

What happened to the proposed restoration of NYSW commuter service?

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Postby JoeG » Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:07 pm

It seems to be in limbo. Apparently NJT and NYSW couldn't agree on terms. There are also NIMBY problems in Sussex County, and the route doesn't seem to have much of a constituency pushing for it. For my part, the proposed schedule posted for it, which was posted on a website a couple of years ago, seems much too slow to attract many riders. It would be nice to have the nysw passenger serviced restored, but it has to produce a reasonably fast commute to be worth it--not that NJT has any interest in speed.
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Postby Irish Chieftain » Mon Apr 19, 2004 6:09 pm

Chief factors are lack of money plus the debacle about NJT requiring yard space in Sparta (supposedly resolved in part by NJT finding such space available in Hardystown Twp).

The NYSW service was supposed to be divided into two halves, the eastern "Bergen Cross-County" half (with Paterson as western terminus), which involved proposals ranging from HBLRT extension to FRA DMU operation but not into Hoboken (instead connecting with HBLRT at Vince Lombardi P/R), and the western Passaic/Sussex County half, where commuter trains would switch off the Main Line in Hawthorne and continue westbound to Sparta via Wyckoff, Oakland, Pompton Lakes, Butler, Newfoundland, etc. The reason for the non-unified service was to afford people from between Sparta and Wyckoff access to Secaucus Junction.
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Postby trainfreak » Wed Apr 21, 2004 4:17 pm

I just thought about this...the NYSW is getting welded rail on a couple portions of their line. So this might boost up speeds and this could help make the travel time shorter so maybe the start of NJT service on the NYSW could come soon like soon as in a few years not decades.
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Postby hsr_fan » Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:07 pm

Rt. 15 passes over an active rail line where the grade crossing was just replaced with an overpass. Is this the line that would have been used by NJT?
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Postby BlockLine_4111 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 5:59 pm

The project is fixated on service to Sparta or no service at all.

I say either go only as far as Butler or to NY State (warwick, middletown, or port jervis).

The Sparta or no service at all mentality is killing this project.

A yard already exists in Port Jervis plus there is plenty of space on the Graham Line since NS isn't running big, frequent freights.

It would be nice to have a station stop w/service to Vernon too.
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Postby n01jd1 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 8:00 pm

Its going to take more than welded rail to make speeeds on the NYSW acceptable for commuter service. A signal system would have to be installed and alot more surfacing work would be needed. The welded rail is being put in to replace the last segments of 110 pound four bolt rail that has been in place since the 1950's or earlier which will help cut maintainance costs. The rail taken up can be used on sidings elsewhere.

trainfreak wrote:I just thought about this...the NYSW is getting welded rail on a couple portions of their line. So this might boost up speeds and this could help make the travel time shorter so maybe the start of NJT service on the NYSW could come soon like soon as in a few years not decades.
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Postby BlockLine_4111 » Wed Apr 21, 2004 9:27 pm

Let me clarify a little. Some of the rail including that in pompton lakes, parallel to Colfax Ave & West Oakland Avenue, is 100 lbs. and pre-dates WWII. Some of it, in shabby locations, will flex under the weight of a 160 lb. person. I am amazed how these six-axle locos pulling autoracks and doublestacks doesn't crash through someone backyard.

You don't need welded rail for commuter service. NJT ran for years at 50+ MPH on 105 lb. rail (on M&E) and 112 lb. rail (Main-Bergen lines). Welded rail can be high maintenance if not well anchored, fastened and ballasted. The compressive and expansive forces are amplified with welded rail versus stick rail.

I'd like to see them run from Port Jervis express to Campbell Hall depo then with stops at Warwick and Vernon skipping Sparta and stopping next at the juncture of 515 & 23. Local stops to Hawthorne and then blazing down the Main Line at high speed to Secaucus Transfer.

I think if one takes the current MN/NJT timetable and Bob Shuerle's proposed timetable an extrapolation can be made of the running time from Port Jervis to Hoboken via this routing.
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Postby NJTRailfan » Thu Apr 22, 2004 1:13 am

I say NJT should just give those closed minded backwooded anti rail hicks in Sparta the finger and go ahead with rail service by passing them and terminating the service in Vernon. This would be good for the people of Vernon Valley esp Mountain Creek if they hope to beat Dorney Park,Camelback and Great Adventure since Mountain Creek would be the only amusement park/resort with direct rail service to Hoboken and rail service to NYP via the ST. Of course Camel back would get theirs when the cutoff finally comes on line.

But if NJT as usual doesn't have the guts then save the headaches for those that uses Rt 23 twice a day and surrounding roadways and have the service go far west as Stockholm.

I'm hoping that if the service goes as far as Vernon congestion on Route 23,15 and 80 wll be taken off and NJ wil become a more cleaner and safer place since there isn't as much cars,SUVs and accidents on the roads because possibly tens of thousands of cars would be off the road.
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Postby Arti » Thu Apr 22, 2004 6:14 am

Why wasn't the service to Sussex co. never planned via Mountain View?
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Postby MSC34 » Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:02 am

Did NJT conduct an EIS concerning the institution of rail service? I suspect it would have done so already. Just curious as this would factor into timing (assuming an agreement could be reached with NYS&W on the right to use this line).
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Postby Tri-State Tom » Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:03 am

IIRC, around the time that CSX and NS were dividing up Conrail, they each also bought a major interest as MAJOR SHAREHOLDERS in the Suzi-Q. I believe Walter Rich remains a 51% owner in the company but both CSX and Noefolk Southern have a MAJOR say in the future operations of the railroad AND it's ROW.
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Postby CarterB » Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:11 am

As discussed previously, the best short term solution would be a yard in/around Newfoundland/Stockholm, a large Park & Ride there, and service via the Hawthorne connection to the Erie Main on in.

Sparta is a no starter, Butler is not sufficient for yard/terminus operations and parking.

Leave Sparta out of it.
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Postby Arti » Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:34 am

As discussed previously, the best short term solution would be a yard in/around Newfoundland/Stockholm


Where would you put a yard over there? IMHO the area is wetlands or something like that, with no development allowed.
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Postby cjvrr » Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:00 am

The location of the old Morris County Central engine facility in Newfoundland has more than enough room for a yard. The area was also the location of new Green Pond Junction. INterchange between the NYS&W and Jersey Central. It is surrounded by Newark Watershed, but it is not wetlands.

As I have posted before service beyond Sparta (or its environs) is senseless. To run trains all the way to Port Jervis would also be silly since the travel time between Port Jervis and Hoboken via the NYS&W would be almost 1 hour longer than the current service.

Any proposed rail service on the NYS&W will not be the "magic pill" to clear traffic along 23, 80, 15, etc. Some on this board are of the opinion that the traffic will just disappear once rail service begins on this line or the Cutoff. Its will not. It will not even make a noticeable difference.

Does anyone have a potential numbers for ridership?

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