MLV EMU Procurement

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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby Patrick Boylan » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:07 am

WhartonAndNorthern wrote:And they will need to supply HEP to the cabs and trailers which could make things interesting (phase sync) if all 4 power cars are supplying HEP.

How interesting is it already with a 12 car train of married pair arrows? Is each pair's HEP isolated, or do all 6 pantographs feed HEP to all 12 cars?
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby WhartonAndNorthern » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:48 am

I believe the pairs are isolated. Only control signals and air brake lines pass between non-married cars.
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby Patrick Boylan » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:25 am

So why do you worry that there will be problems if all 4 of the new multilevel power cars will supply HEP? Why do you think they wouldn't continue what you think is what they do now, isolate the sections somehow so each power car gives only its cab and trailers HEP?
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby EuroStar » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:27 am

While I am one of the people who see quite a few challenges that need to be solved before these cars become reality, I am very confused why phase sync is one of them. The most likely answer to this is that the "triplets" will be insulated from each other at the time the trainsets are put together in the yard by not connecting the HEP wires between the "triplets".

HEP is three phase 480V derived from the single phase of the overhead catenary, so yeah, if connecting all HEP together is desired, then syncing them becomes necessary. However, I am not aware of anywhere in North America where train HEP is provided from multiple sources at the same time to the same car. Also the technology to sync the phases exists, they do that on the power grid all the time, so it will be only question of miniaturizing it.

The more interesting question is whether the phase breaks between Amtrak's 25Hz and NJT's 60Hz power need to get as long as 12 cars in order to ensure that all cars in the same consist are powered by the same power frequency. I am not very familiar with this, but maybe as long as the only wires going between the "triplets" are control wires, there is no need to make the phase breaks long because no power crosses triplet boundaries?
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby WhartonAndNorthern » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:55 pm

FRA rules have always required a continuous HEP loop of both the power pins and continuity pins. Running multiple, separate loops would violate that rule. There have been prior attempts on certain locomotive models equipped with HEP generators to synchronize them. I imagine these EMUs would use solid-state conversion so it would probably be easier to synchronize. Still it is a challenge.

They wouldn't be able to directly transform catenary voltage to HEP (480V 3ph 60 Hz) in 25 Hz areas hence my assumption of solid state conversion.
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby Patrick Boylan » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:51 pm

Before you said on married pairs you believe HEP is isolated, now you say FRA rules require a continuous loop. Which is it?
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby DutchRailnut » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:07 pm

on 12 car train there is two ways of doing it, one continuous loop with 3 powercars one supplying , two standby
or 3 loops of 4 cars each , with 3 isolated loops as if 3 trains were coupled.
don't forget with MU each set supplies its own HEP as well be it pairs or triplets , only thing coupling them is brake pipe and control voltage
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby WhartonAndNorthern » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:54 pm

DutchRailnut wrote: or 3 loops of 4 cars each , with 3 isolated loops as if 3 trains were coupled.


I thought FRA rules required a continuous loop or at least ability to shutdown an entire train's HEP from a single control point. I can see building jumpers that isolate power pins and send continuity signals through or using a spare contact in the MU or comm line to shut down HEP.
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby DutchRailnut » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:18 am

there is single way to shut down entire train , its called Pan down button.
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby WhartonAndNorthern » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:52 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:there is single way to shut down entire train , its called Pan down button.

Good point!
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby GojiMet86 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:19 pm

The agreement:

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/bombardier- ... -1.1195693

Bombardier signs US$669M rail car deal with New Jersey
The Canadian Press


MONTREAL -- Bombardier Inc. has signed a US$669-million deal to provide 113 commuter rail cars to New Jersey.

The company says the contract will yield no additional work in Canada, with Buy American rules prompting Bombardier's plant in Plattsburgh, N.Y., to build the multi-level cars, rather than its facility in Quebec.

As of 2018, at least 65 per cent of the cost of components for public transit projects must be manufactured in the United States, with final assembly taking place on American turf as well.

The minimum content threshold will increase to 70 per cent by 2020.

Announced Wednesday, the agreement with New Jersey Transit Corp. includes options for up to 886 additional rail cars.

It's Bombardier's third commuter car deal with the state-owned transit agency, following contracts awarded in 2002 and 2010.
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby andegold » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:26 pm

999 total cars????? They must think there's interest from other agencies to buy the options.
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby njt/mnrrbuff » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:51 pm

Septa is piggybacking off of NJT on the Multilevel MU order. The Septa Silverliner IVs are up there in age and in fact, almost as old as the NJT Arrow IIIs.
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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby MACTRAXX » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:49 pm

njt/mnrrbuff wrote:Septa is piggybacking off of NJT on the Multilevel MU order. The Septa Silverliner IVs are up there in age and in fact, almost as old as the NJT Arrow IIIs.

Buff: The SEPTA Silverliner Four cars are OLDER than the Arrow Three cars.
Silverliner Four cars date from 1974-76 (initial group of 18 RDG 9018-9031 late 1973)
The retired Arrow Two fleet (534-603 later 1234-1303) were from the same mid 70s period.
The Arrow Three cars date from 1978-79 and were rebuilt during the second half of the 1990s.

That option totaling 999 cars only makes sense if NJT decides to either retire their entire single
level car fleet and go entirely multilevel - or let another agency - SEPTA - to replace the entire
Silverliner Four fleet (228 cars now in service?) with add-on options. The price tag for this is
going to be at least two billion dollars by my guesstimate...

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Re: MLV EMU Procurement

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:30 pm

The Canadian Press: The company says the contract will yield no additional work in Canada, with Buy American rules prompting Bombardier's plant in Plattsburgh, N.Y., to build the multi-level cars, rather than its facility in Quebec.

It's Bombardier's third commuter car deal with the state-owned transit agency, following contracts awarded in 2002 and 2010.
Should keep Plattsburgh busy, so good news, given all the work awarded to Sacramento (Siemens) lately. Note this is not NJT's third contract with BBD. They've had a long relationship since the early 1980s with the Comet II (1982-83), Comet I rebuild (1987), Comet IIB (1988), Comet III (1990-91) and Comet IV (1996).

MACTRAXX wrote:The SEPTA Silverliner Four cars are OLDER than the Arrow Three cars. Silverliner Four cars date from 1974-76 (initial group of 18 RDG 9018-9031 late 1973)
The retired Arrow Two fleet (534-603 later 1234-1303) were from the same mid 70s period. The Arrow Three cars date from 1978-79 and were rebuilt during the second half of the 1990s.
Arrow IIIs date to 1977 and 1978 and were ordered by NJDOT for the Hoboken Division 25k AC conversion. Many were stored upon delivery for years (while others operated on the Newark Division) since the Hoboken AC conversion project was years behind schedule. Overhauled by ABB 1992-1995 with AC traction. The Arrow IIs were built during 1974, right after the Silverliner IV single units.
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