south ferry loop question

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south ferry loop question

Postby flexliner » Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:30 pm

aside from the old s ferry shuttle which used to pull in to the inner platform and then "wrong rail" back to the stub platform at bowling green have there been times when other trains (1,9, 5) pull into either side at S ferry and then reverse to rector st or bowling green rather than completing the loop?
are the tracks signalled for such operation, if it was ever needed?
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Re: south ferry loop question

Postby Allan » Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:19 am

flexliner wrote:aside from the old s ferry shuttle which used to pull in to the inner platform and then "wrong rail" back to the stub platform at bowling green have there been times when other trains (1,9, 5) pull into either side at S ferry and then reverse to rector st or bowling green rather than completing the loop?
are the tracks signalled for such operation, if it was ever needed?


I doubt that it ever happened.

Prior to the events of 9/11/01 there were no switches between Chambers and South Ferry that would have allowed a southbound train to switch to the northbound track (and vice versa) to do a reverse move. The crossover switches that were south of Rector Street were added when that section was rebuilt after 9/11 and then they were removed during the building of the new SF station.

There would have been no need for the 5 to do such a move since either loop track could be used to bring a train around the loop. If there was a problem using both loop tracks the 5 train would be sent into Brooklyn. The crossovers between Bowling Green and Wall Street have always been rarely used (except when that section was built in 1905).
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Re: south ferry loop question

Postby flexliner » Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:09 am

I just glanced at the track maps on NYCSubway.org
just south of rector there is a single switch which would allow a northbound 1 departing the "downtown" track from SF to switch to the "uptown" track for rector st
but there seems to be no way for a southbound 1 from rector to switch to arrive at the "uptown" track in the SF terminal
is the map correct or missing something?
surely the terminal is not a single track terminal?
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Re: south ferry loop question

Postby Kamen Rider » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:13 am

ignore those maps they were updated by a dope who didn't know what he was doing.
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Re: south ferry loop question

Postby DaveBarraza » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:28 pm

Image

There was always a trailing point crossover there. In later years it was controlled from Bowling Green and Nevins.

There was/is no traffic locking or other directional control between Bowling Green and Rector, but this does not necessarily preclude making reverse moves back in the old days when people knew how to operate the railroad. (Original BMT interlockings allowed moves against the flow of traffic by call-on, with no traffic locking.)

The normal purpose of signal 2L would be to turn back a train standing immediately behind it. And that feature was probably used regularly, since the gap fillers at the Ferry were prone to occasional failure.

Image
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Re: south ferry loop question

Postby jlr3266 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:20 am

I had the fun of riding a late night 5 out of Brooklyn that headed up the 2 Line to Chambers, then reversed moved back to South Ferry and looped into Bowing Green for a normal run up the Lex. Took forever, but my buddy and I had tons to BS about!
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Re: south ferry loop question

Postby jlr3266 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:23 am

This would have been in 1985-86.
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Re: south ferry loop question

Postby flexliner » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:49 am

thanks for the track diagrams
back to my second query - I presume the track maps on nycsubway.org are off, and there is a crossover switch somewhere between the new SF and rector?
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Re: south ferry loop question

Postby Allan » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:11 am

flexliner wrote:thanks for the track diagrams
back to my second query - I presume the track maps on nycsubway.org are off, and there is a crossover switch somewhere between the new SF and rector?



There isn't a crossover between Rector and the junction created at the point where the original tracks went to the left and the old loop station and where the new tracks go straight ahead and then curve to the new station. The only crossover is just north of the new station.
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Re: south ferry loop question

Postby railfan365 » Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:26 am

I have a belated question about the South Ferry Terminal. I read years ago that the purpose of having loop tracks at South Ferry was orignally to speed service by not having crews take the time for a switchback - just keep the train going, with a loop around into the uptown direction. Part of the buildup for the new station is that rather than having a train screech slowly around a loop, it would speed service just to drive it in straight and then reverse it back out.

The question is: Since it can't be both ways, which way is the faster to reverse a train: Driving it around a loop, or switching ends on a stub ending track?
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Re: south ferry loop question

Postby Allan » Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:23 am

railfan365 wrote:I have a belated question about the South Ferry Terminal. I read years ago that the purpose of having loop tracks at South Ferry was orignally to speed service by not having crews take the time for a switchback - just keep the train going, with a loop around into the uptown direction. Part of the buildup for the new station is that rather than having a train screech slowly around a loop, it would speed service just to drive it in straight and then reverse it back out.

The question is: Since it can't be both ways, which way is the faster to reverse a train: Driving it around a loop, or switching ends on a stub ending track?



The main point of the "buildup" for the new station is that all 10 cars could platform and all the doors be opened whereas only 5 cars could be opened on the old loop platform.

One could say that a loop is faster but if a crew is ready & waiting at the stub end/terminal station, the train could be back out in just about as much time.
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Re: south ferry loop question

Postby railfan365 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:58 pm

Yes, I did see that the benfits of the new terminal would incude not only a full length platform, but also more etrnaces and exits, ADA compliance, less steel on steel noise, and an in station transfer with the BMT. However, it was also said that there would be faster turnaround. Thanks for confirming my thoughts on that part.
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Re: south ferry loop question

Postby Kamen Rider » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:55 pm

Prior to the loop being closed, the south operational terminal of the 1 was Chambers street uptown. Timers and such probibly slowed service over the years as well. Also, you had the folks who didn't know which end of the train was the front. Ask a CR who worked the 1 long term about how many Emergency brake cord pulls they had to reset.
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Re: south ferry loop question

Postby CP-4070 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:49 pm

I would be interested in the following:

- Does any one know the diameter of both, the outer and inner loop if you would see them as a circle?
- Is/was there a physical connection betwenn the platforms of both loops within the station or had passengers to cross via street level?

Thanks!
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Re: south ferry loop question

Postby Passenger » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:57 am

It was in effect two separate stations.
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