Subway Extension to Secaucus (Flushing #7 or L Canarsie)

Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby zerovanity59 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:29 pm

Tommy Meehan wrote:
Again, awaiting further study. Supporters hope it can piggyback on Amtrak's Gateway project. Link


That doesn't seem to me like a very realistic plan, to piggyback the 7 extension on Amtrak's Gateway project. Capital funding dollars for the foreseeable future are very scarce. Political people have said it will be difficult for Amtrak to secure the billions needed to build Gateway. Trying to add more billions to fund a 7 extension might be virtually impossible.


Doesn't the Gateway project include a competing extension of the 7 to turn back east after the 11 ave and 34 st station and stop at south Penn Station at 31st. and 8th and 7th Aves? How could both extensions be built without branching the line, which would reduce ridership?
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby Tommy Meehan » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:02 am

I'm not sure what is meant by Gateway including a competing extension of the 7 train. To be clear from my end, when the planners talk about piggybacking the 7 extension with the Gateway project they don't mean physically. They mean in terms of combining the planning/funding into one big capital project: i.e. you can't do one without the other. But as separate projects by separate agencies.
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby Hamilton Express » Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:51 am

I have a feeling that most likely it'll be taken into consideration again with the Gateway Project gaining attention lately.
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby Jeff Smith » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:31 am

I'm not sure if it's been addressed in the thread, but at the Gateway topic in the Amtrak forum there is talk of including a transit option in the proposed Amtrak tunnels. I'm not sure if a connection at the tunnel box is physically feasible for the 7 given the elevation and location of the tail tracks, etc.

It certainly would facilitate a host of possible connections to the East Side, MNRR/GCT, LIRR/ESA, etc.
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby 35dtmrs92 » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:11 pm

Jeff Smith wrote:I'm not sure if it's been addressed in the thread, but at the Gateway topic in the Amtrak forum there is talk of including a transit option in the proposed Amtrak tunnels. I'm not sure if a connection at the tunnel box is physically feasible for the 7 given the elevation and location of the tail tracks, etc.

It certainly would facilitate a host of possible connections to the East Side, MNRR/GCT, LIRR/ESA, etc.


I'm sorry, if tax dollars will be going to extend the 7 line, I think they will be much better spent tunneling to New Jersey than to Penn Station. I have made the NYP-GCT transfer by subway going between NJ and CT several times. I find it cumbersome, but it is feasible. Moreover, I think that improvements that are already funded or likely to be funded soon will obviate the need for many West Side-East Side transfers necessary and make them more bearable in the future for those who have still to make them. First, East Side Access will take East Side-bound LIRR customers off the subways connecting NYP to the East Side. Second, ESA will also open up slots for New Haven Line and maybe some Hudson Line trains to come to NYP, taking even more customers who today transfer via subway out of the mix. Third, recently funded improvements to the GCT subway complex should improve circulation there. All the above should make lives easier for NJT passengers going to/from the East Side and Harlem Line customers going to/from the West Side, which are the biggest travel segments who will still have to use the subways for onward connections once East Side Access and Penn Station Access are in place.

Are West Side/NYP-East Side/GCT subway transfers a pain today? Yes. Would the public dollars required to bring the 7 train to NYP be offset by the relief it brings? I am unconvinced. While bringing the 7 around to NYP would open a one-seat NYP-GCT transfer, said ride would take a circuitous route. I am open to being persuaded otherwise, but I don't see it saving much time over today's options, much less providing incremental benefit over the travel options that should be available once East Side Access and Penn Station Access are in place. In contrast, rapid transit serving the upper Hoboken/Weehawken general area and Secaucus will be a massive help in decongesting Manhattan-"Gold Coast" travel, which Gateway and East Side Access and Penn Station Access will all be unable to do.

Long story short, I will not lose sleep if the 7 to NYP remains a line on a planning map.
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby NorthWest » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:38 pm

Wouldn't it be easier to simply expand the 42nd Street Shuttle into a NYP-Times Square-GCT shuttle? Perhaps putting back one or both of the now unused track ways to speed headways?
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby Backshophoss » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:57 am

That streach of subway that's now the Times Sq-GCT shuttle was part of the original IRT Main line,would require a reverse move
at Times Square Jct to go to NY Penn at 33rd street since 2 of 4 tracks connect northward(uptown).
On the GCT end,2 out of 4 tracks connect southward(downtown).
The final Extension to Hudson Yards on the #7 just went online, to spend the kind of $$$$$$$$ needed to
extend to NJ would be better spent on Gateway into NY Penn
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby NorthWest » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:51 am

Yes, although it hasn't run that way since the Dual Contracts extensions opened in 1918. I assume any extension to NYP would involve new construction to avoid creating problems with the IRT West Side Line. I do agree that Gateway is a far more pressing problem, though,
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby BobLI » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:32 am

They should forget about going to NJ and expand the subways into northern and eastern Queens and parts of Brooklyn. use that money to help improve NY subway commuters and forget about the 7 to Jersey.
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby Jeff Smith » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:03 am

35dtmrs92 wrote:
Jeff Smith wrote:I'm not sure if it's been addressed in the thread, but at the Gateway topic in the Amtrak forum there is talk of including a transit option in the proposed Amtrak tunnels. I'm not sure if a connection at the tunnel box is physically feasible for the 7 given the elevation and location of the tail tracks, etc.

It certainly would facilitate a host of possible connections to the East Side, MNRR/GCT, LIRR/ESA, etc.


I'm sorry, if tax dollars will be going to extend the 7 line, I think they will be much better spent tunneling to New Jersey than to Penn Station. I have made the NYP-GCT transfer by subway going between NJ and CT several times. I find it cumbersome, but it is feasible. Moreover, I think that improvements that are already funded or likely to be funded soon will obviate the need for many West Side-East Side transfers necessary and make them more bearable in the future for those who have still to make them. First, East Side Access will take East Side-bound LIRR customers off the subways connecting NYP to the East Side. Second, ESA will also open up slots for New Haven Line and maybe some Hudson Line trains to come to NYP, taking even more customers who today transfer via subway out of the mix. Third, recently funded improvements to the GCT subway complex should improve circulation there. All the above should make lives easier for NJT passengers going to/from the East Side and Harlem Line customers going to/from the West Side, which are the biggest travel segments who will still have to use the subways for onward connections once East Side Access and Penn Station Access are in place.

Are West Side/NYP-East Side/GCT subway transfers a pain today? Yes. Would the public dollars required to bring the 7 train to NYP be offset by the relief it brings? I am unconvinced. While bringing the 7 around to NYP would open a one-seat NYP-GCT transfer, said ride would take a circuitous route. I am open to being persuaded otherwise, but I don't see it saving much time over today's options, much less providing incremental benefit over the travel options that should be available once East Side Access and Penn Station Access are in place. In contrast, rapid transit serving the upper Hoboken/Weehawken general area and Secaucus will be a massive help in decongesting Manhattan-"Gold Coast" travel, which Gateway and East Side Access and Penn Station Access will all be unable to do.

Long story short, I will not lose sleep if the 7 to NYP remains a line on a planning map.


Not sure why you quoted me; I'm not advocating bring the 7 to Penn. I was raising the topic of the extension to NJ obviating the need for the NYP-TSQ-GCT shuttle shuffle.
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby Steampowered » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:07 am

I always though it was really dumb the S train didnt start at penn station and end at grand central.
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby Arlington » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:23 am

It isn't dumb. It is just an accident of history. Construction on Penn didn't even start until 1905 or finish 'til 1910. So there was no Penn when the IRT built what would become the shuttle in 1904 (but the NY Central had its Grand Central Station at the site of the future GCT starting in 1899. The IRT stop kept the name Grand Central Station even after the Central renamed its site to Grand Central Terminal )

The 7 is in a much better position to fix the need for a GCT-Penn connection, simply because it is so much deeper. I'd say that the 7 didn't go to Penn for the World's Fair is the stupid thing (though partly excused by the fact that while access from GCT to the World's Fair woud've been impossible without the 7, from Penn you could get to the World's Fair by Penn trains)

Shuttle was part of the IRT's original upper-west to lower Lex line. Built in 1904 and shuttle-fied in 1918 simply by severing the two halves of their system so it unfortunately meets at-grade both halves of the resulting H-shape: Lexington (123) and Broadway (456). At-grade meetings suck and don't get fixed (see also PATH getting cut off at 34th St)
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby Steampowered » Thu Sep 24, 2015 11:49 am

Yes i understand , but that is almost 100 years ago. I think in that time, it could have been corrected. Which i feel the same about the gateway which should have been done in 60-90s years
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby bklynkenny » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:27 pm

It wouldn't be corrected; it would be starting from scratch. The shuttle required minimal infrastructure investment to work as all the tracks were in place already. To make it turn down to Penn Station would require tunneling underneath existing tracks and lowering the entire Times Square shuttle station.
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby TDowling » Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:12 pm

Arent there legal/jurisdictional ramifications to running MTA trains into NJ?
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