Subway Extension to Secaucus (Flushing #7 or L Canarsie)

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Subway Extension to Secaucus (Flushing #7 or L Canarsie)

Postby IRFCA_RRfan » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:22 pm

deliberated about posting this to the NYC Subway threads, maybe the Mods can decide.. but like to leave it here to sound out th eNJ side of things too.
So does this still sound like a win-win?
Maybe NJ does not "return" the $270 mil; the $3bill pie comes back - albeit distributed amongst NJ/NY/PA this time; Amtrak still gets their own "high speed" tunnel "sometime" in the future, and NJ gets access to mid town and GCT; while NYC gets a boom in the far-west real estate that they have been dreaming about all these years. And of course all politicians all around get to claim their own victories.

Ever since Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey killed an expensive plan for a new commuter rail tunnel to Manhattan, the Bloomberg administration has been working on an alternative: run the No. 7 subway train under the Hudson River.
The plan envisions the No. 7 stretching from 34th Street on the Far West Side of Manhattan to Secaucus, N.J., where there is a connection to New Jersey Transit trains. It would extend the New York City subway outside the city for the first time, giving New Jersey commuters direct access to Times Square, Grand Central Terminal and Queens, and to almost every line in the system.
Like the project scuttled by Mr. Christie, this proposed tunnel would expand a regional transportation system already operating at capacity and would double the number of trains traveling between the two states during peak hours. But it would do so at about half the cost, an estimated $5.3 billion, according to a closely guarded, four-page memorandum circulated by the city’s Hudson Yards Development Corporation.
Unlike the old project, the new plan does not require costly condemnation proceedings or extensive tunneling in Manhattan, because the city is already building a No. 7 station at 34th Street and 11th Avenue, roughly one block from the waterfront. In July, a massive 110-ton tunnel boring machine completed drilling for the city’s $2.1 billion extension of the No. 7 line from Times Square to the new station.

City officials had initially hoped that they could recapture the $3 billion pledged by the federal government, but that no longer seems possible, and the project will most likely have to compete with others around the country for the money. A spokesman for Mr. LaHood declined to comment on the proposal on Tuesday.

Another obstacle is the lengthy environmental review required of such projects, but officials are hoping to be able to use much of the work already done for the tunnel that was killed.

And it is unclear whether New Jersey is willing to redirect to the No. 7 train project the money it had originally intended for the tunnel plan, which was known as Access to the Region’s Core, or ARC. “The issue again will come down to, what will Governor Christie say,” said Jeffrey M. Zupan, senior fellow for transportation of the Regional Plan Association.
It is very likely that the Port Authority would have to be involved, since it has condemnation powers in both New York and New Jersey, unlike the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which oversees the city’s subways.

Aside from relieving congestion on the rails, the proposal also would benefit New York’s real estate industry, because it would include an $800 million subway station at 10th Avenue and 42nd Street, an area with limited public transportation and a number of new residential towers. The station was part of the Bloomberg administration’s plan for the No. 7 extension, but was cut to trim costs.

And the project would almost certainly serve as a boon for the planned $15 billion Hudson Yards residential and office development, to be built on platforms over the West Side railyards. That project has been stymied by the recession and an absence of demand for new residential and commercial space.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/17/nyregion/17tunnel.html?_r=1&hp
Last edited by IRFCA_RRfan on Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: #7 subway to Secaucus

Postby cruiser939 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:43 pm

You should definitely post this in the MTA forum, although it will probably get more exposure here. You might also consider snipping some of that article down to just a quote as some mods love to enforce that rule.

This is all very "pie in the sky". It would be great if it were done but in the immortal words of ErieLimited2914: "don't hold your breath".
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#7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby IRFCA_RRfan » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:52 pm

x-posting here to also hear the NYC/MTA side of it?

Ever since Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey killed an expensive plan for a new commuter rail tunnel to Manhattan, the Bloomberg administration has been working on an alternative: run the No. 7 subway train under the Hudson River.
The plan envisions the No. 7 stretching from 34th Street on the Far West Side of Manhattan to Secaucus, N.J., where there is a connection to New Jersey Transit trains. It would extend the New York City subway outside the city for the first time, giving New Jersey commuters direct access to Times Square, Grand Central Terminal and Queens, and to almost every line in the system.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/17/nyregion/17tunnel.html?_r=1&hp
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Re: #7 subway to Secaucus

Postby ryanov » Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:03 pm

Who would that serve? People transferring from the Main/Bergen/Pascack lines?
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Re: #7 subway to Secaucus

Postby korbermeister » Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:39 pm

ryanov wrote:Who would that serve? People transferring from the Main/Bergen/Pascack lines?

Well, if i worked on the east side and commuted from brunswick, i'd get off at secaucus and transfer to the 7 just to avoid crowded penn station and the subway @ 34th st which is, of course crowded @ rush hour.
this would also spur development in secaucus. and maybe nj could get the mta to agree to a station in the union city area or a connection to the hb rail line! I see win, win, win; something for all the big egos involved!
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Re: #7 subway to Secaucus

Postby cruiser939 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:56 pm

korbermeister wrote:Where's the Robert Moses of Rail when you need him?!!!!

He just escaped from rr.net prison. Is it any coincidence that the ARC project got canned while I was on the island of Dr. Moreau. Hey, wasn't Nelson Mandela imprisoned also? hmm...

All this dreaming is making me tired.
Last edited by cruiser939 on Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: #7 subway to Secaucus

Postby korbermeister » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:09 pm

abc7 just said that the plan would have the 7 line tunnel to Hoboken! and then onward to secaucus. Let's see what Bloomberg can do
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Re: #7 subway to Secaucus

Postby break the seals » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:10 pm

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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby Jeff Smith » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:04 am

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... sNewsForth

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It's not mentioned but I'm sure there's consideration given to NJT contributing to the project. The article mentions a $5.3B price.

The plan is an attempt to expand rail capacity and grab some of the $3 billion in federal money that had been set aside for a rail-tunnel project between New Jersey and Manhattan, according to multiple people familiar with discussions over the project. New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie spiked the rail tunnel three weeks ago due to concerns about cost overruns.

The Bloomberg administration cautioned that the plan is preliminary and has been under discussion for only a matter of weeks. "Extending the 7 line to New Jersey could address many of the region's transportation capacity issues at a fraction of the original tunnel's cost, but the idea is still in its earliest stages," said Andrew Brent, a spokesman for Deputy Mayor Robert Steel.

City officials are pitching the idea to others in government and real-estate executives as a lower-cost alternative to the $9 billion-plus project killed by Mr. Christie late last month.

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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby hrfcarl » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:07 am

NY Daily News of 11/17/2010, page 10, also had an article about this proposal (can never find their articles online).

At this point, if the 7 subway line can be extended outside city limits, why not continue to the Meadowland taking over NJTs stub line there (non game days, lots could charge riders to park)?
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby railfan365 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:18 am

I agree that extending the Queensboro IRT into New Jersey would be good - but perhaps the money would be better spent right now on expediting ESA and having the the 2nd Avenue Subway running AT LEAST through Phase 2.
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby Arlington » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:24 pm

#7 Extension is Superior to ARC in a number of ways:

1) Free Station Capacity: No cost for a giant subterranean terminal (as with ARC), because there will be 10 mid-town platforms already built (at 34th, 42nd, 5th Ave, and GCT), and will use those platforms on the "non-rush" side.

2) Mostly Free Railcar Capacity: Not much cost for additional trainsets, since this mostly loads the #7 in its "non-rush" directions (eastbound in the AM, Westbound in the PM)

3) Frees up capacity on Penn's Subway lines...good for New Yorkers too!

4) Adds to Midtown's attractiveness for global HQs, Aligning Manhattans' modern center as a transportation Center (all of NJ's rail connections are very "1910" and do not support Midtown)
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby Jeff Smith » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:48 pm

He!!, let's extend it to the DC Metro! It's all part of Bloomberg's plot to win the Presidency in 2012; build the extension, block the ARC with the tunnel, force NJ to capitulate. Next thing you know there'll be a "secret baggage car" on a side platform in GCT!

Just kidding.

Considering this is very preliminary, everything postulated here is pure speculation. One question does come to mind; given the distance between 34th and Secaucus, has anyone thought about the running speed of this heavy rail car? That's a long distance at max speed, assuming no add'l stations.

You can't really change the equipment too much; you have the Steinway tunnels and their restrictions, right? Plus, curvature changing directions from 42nd east to south. It's not as if you can put a commuter car on these rails and through run them to Shea, as I've learned on here.

It's a somewhat long distance, it seems, to ride on a subway car.
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Re: #7 Subway to NJ/Secaucus

Postby Arlington » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:20 pm

Jeff Smith wrote:Considering this is very preliminary, everything postulated here is pure speculation. One question does come to mind; given the distance between 34th and Secaucus, has anyone thought about the running speed of this heavy rail car? That's a long distance at max speed, assuming no add'l stations.

You can't really change the equipment too much; you have the Steinway tunnels and their restrictions, right? Plus, curvature changing directions from 42nd east to south. It's not as if you can put a commuter car on these rails and through run them to Shea, as I've learned on here.

It's a somewhat long distance, it seems, to ride on a subway car.

As the crow flies, its about 4 miles. A likely length is in the 4.5 to 5.5 mile range since a U shaped routing with 2 stops (at 14th Street and Hoboken Terminal) and then along Pulaski Skyway is 5.6 miles.

So the ride would be similar to today's Express 7 service from Woodside in Queens (or at worst like service from Junction Boulevard)

Because it would likely rely on tax increment financing, I'd assume 2 to 3 intermediate stops chosen (or combined) from this list:
- 11th Ave & 23rd Street or 10th Ave & 14th Street
- NJ Waterfront (ferry landing...at either Lincoln Harbor, Stevens Tech, or Hudson Terminal)
- Hudson-Bergen Light Rail connection (in lieu of or combined with waterfront)
- Back-of-Hoboken
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Re: #7 subway to Secaucus

Postby Tom V » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:24 pm

Serving both Hoboken and Secaucus would be terrific, it could use the Bergen arches to transit between Hoboken and Secaucus jct.

A 2 seat ride to get to Citi Field to watch the Mets lose.....NICE!


Taking that idea to the next level, if the 7 train were to be extended to Secaucus it could then go all the Way to the Meadowlands. A high frequency/high capacity subway spur to the Meadowlands sports complex would better suite the mass exodus of of fans/spectators, the existing row through the complex could be converted to Subway standards. That would allow a one seat ride to the Stadium from Manhattan and Queens.
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