Cross Harbor Freight Tunnel (PATH / NYS)

Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby SecaucusJunction » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:05 pm

From what I've been hearing, barges of garbage from that area are going to be headed to Staten Island to be put on trains out of the region, possibly to incinerators around Philadelphia and western NY. This idea should be expanded in the not too distant future to include most, if not all, garbage in the region.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.
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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby pumpers » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:22 pm

That does make a lot of sense. Staten Island does have the infrastructure for handling garbage already and to do it away from residential areas, along with the direct rail connection to NJ. Right now that connection routes all traffic east on the Chemical Coast after coming over from Staten Island - I assume everything goes to Oak Island first. I have always been wondering if there were enough traffic if they would put in a connection for a unit train to head west on the Chemical Coast after coming over the AK bridge. I know CSX does haul some garbage (not sure of origin - does someone here know?) west through Philly already (every now and they park a train for an extended time right next to the river in downtown Philly on a hot summer day - and the locals sure don't like that!). Maybe this new traffic could develop into the chance for that westbound connection.
Jim S
Last edited by pumpers on Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby ccutler » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:49 am

pumpers...if the trash containers are green, likely from NYC; if the trash containers are blue, likely from Kearny NJ.
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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby SecaucusJunction » Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:44 am

From what I've heard, garbage traffic from Queens will start this year and Manhattan will start next year. (of course these time frames are always subject to delays). The containers will be loaded onto barges on Staten Island. There was a plan to have them load right at Jersey City, NJ but the NIMBY's seem to be succeeding at killing that. Since the destinations are Philadelphia and NY state... it is very likely that all of these will be CSX contracts. Bronx trash is already handled through the "Selkirk hurdle" and to a landfill in Virginia if I remember correctly. Staten Island trash goes out on Q301 in those orange containers.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.
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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby pumpers » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:40 am

CCutler, SJ, thanks.
One thing I am confused on:
SecaucusJunction wrote: The containers will be loaded onto barges on Staten Island.

I thought the trash containers would be put onto trains on State Island to head to the AK bridge and NJ rails. Maybe you mean empty containers are sent by barge from Staten Island to Queens, etc, to be loaded and then brought back by barge to Staten Island to put onto trains? Sorry if I am missing the obvious.
JS
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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby SecaucusJunction » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:27 am

You are right. I meant to say loaded onto barges "to" Staten Island. It looks like this will be the big new staging center since the Port Authority's plan for Jersey City is dead at this point.

Also, NYC recently put out an order for bidding for Brooklyn trash to barge out of 2 locations, also possibly headed to Staten Island. Seneca Meadows apparently put a bid on it. If that happened, there might be NYC trash trains headed for the Finger Lakes RR.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.
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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby pumpers » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:49 pm

Looks like some of the trains will be going to an incinerator just south of Philadelphia. A quick run on the CSX Trenton line across NJ.
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/loc ... 68261.html
Waste-to-energy company Covanta struck a 20-year deal with New York City's Department of Sanitation last summer. Under the agreement, Covanta will use trains to transport as much as 800,000 tons of waste annually from New York City. Roughly half of the waste will be burned and converted to energy at Covanta's Delaware Valley incenerator plant on the Chester waterfront, just 20 miles south of Philadelphia.

From the article, it sounds like it is already burning NYC trash brought in by trucks which will be replaced with rail. Maybe I'll get my westbound AK connection to the Chemical Coast finally.
JS
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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby wolfboy8171981 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:08 pm

pumpers wrote: Maybe I'll get my westbound AK connection to the Chemical Coast finally.
JS


Why, its just as quick to go North and then west, than going south to fight the Oil/Ethanol traffic. Trust Me.
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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby wolfboy8171981 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:10 pm

SecaucusJunction wrote: Seneca Meadows apparently put a bid on it. If that happened, there might be NYC trash trains headed for the Finger Lakes RR.


That could go via NS.
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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby pumpers » Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:27 pm

There is talk on the Susquehanna Yahoo group of a new contract to the NYSW from CSX to haul garbage from the northern NJ area to what I would presume be Syracuse, starting next month and growing all year. Makes sense I suppose if it is eventually heading west on the old NYC main from Syracuse, and CSX has no spare capacity on the River line. I don't know the source of the trash but it could be this Staten Island transfer. JS
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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby freightguy » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:42 am

Waste Management is bringing on a new plant on LIRR( NYA) lower Montauk branch near Long Island City/Maspeth, Queens. The rail infrastructure is already built and in place. This will compliment the existing rail served Waste Management plant on the nearby Bushwich Branch. These cars are already added to CSXT Q704 east of Hudson trash train with the Bronx trash.

Virtually all the Cross Harbor cars floated are bridge traffic for the New York and Atlantic Railway destined for Long Island. This business is currently about 4/5000 carloads a year from Norfolk Southern to LI, Queens, and Brooklyn. It will be interesting to see if NS recently acquired D&H chooses use the trackage rights along the Hudson potentially removing barging cars across New York Harbor from the equation outright.
Signed off
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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby ccutler » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:27 am

freightguy, thanks for the updated car count for crossharbor rail...interesting to see the number is that high.

Yesterday I saw a barge in the East River carrying those fudge-brown trash containers that have been showing up in Oak Point Yard. I'm wondering where they are going...if you have seen those new barges of trash lower downstream please let us know. I think they are carrying bulk recyclables rather than household trash.
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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby SecaucusJunction » Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:41 am

Every little bit helps to get more trucks off the road and trains on the tracks. The amount of municipal waste that is trucked from NYC through NJ is crazy. The rest of Queens and Manhattan should come online next year.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.
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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby EDM5970 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:39 pm

The Port Authority just put out a bid package for the construction and delivery of two carfloats. While I still think my scaled-up version of 'Las Plumas' is a good alternative, it looks like they have made the decision to go with conventional, albeit longer, carfloats. I took a good look at the drawings, which call for a single ended float, four tracks wide, with a capacity of 18 sixty foot cars.

I think they could gain some efficiency if they made these floats double ended. If both ends are identical allowing loading and unloading from either end, more trips could be made in a given time period by eliminating the need to turn the float around when docking. The additional length, which would come from adding a second bow, could hold two more cars. The Staten Island Ferry wastes no time in turning around to dock, right?

As designed, or with my suggested 'tweaks', any harbor tug of appropriate size could handle these carfloats. But going back to my idea of an electric powered 'Las Plumas', an electric powered tug might be a good alternative. Using the Articulated Tug/Barge concept (ATB) as a starting point, why not have a dedicated tug attached to the barge alongside? Attached at the floats midpoint by a large 'hinge', the tug could use it's azimuthing propeller to turn itself around while the float is being loaded and unloaded. Electric cables for charging the tug's batteries can be run through the hinge, barge and then ashore for power; again, the batteries being charged while docked.

I think the Port Authority has the right idea, but perhaps it could be developed a bit more. An electric powered carfloat system should be able to get some development money, tax credits or tax benefits.
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Re: Cross Harbor Freight Plans....

Postby adama1 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:55 pm

Jersey City rail and the industrial economy of New York harbor: Timothy White at TEDxJerseyCity

Although overlooked in most New York City histories, Jersey City, NJ, was absolutely vital to the economy of New York Harbor in the age of railroads. Historian Timothy R. White has begun extensive research on the economic contributions of this "Sixth Borough" in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. In this talk, he challenges his audience to think about Jersey City as an integral part of New York City's economic history.

https://youtu.be/PC_TjXVg2mQ
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