Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:53 pm

A "human interest" feature appearing in The Times today:

http://nytimes.com/2016/12/28/nyregion/ ... unday.html

Fair Use:

Construction workers who dug the tunnels. Leaders who pushed for funding. East Siders who yearned for an easier commute.

Many New Yorkers never lived long enough to witness this bit of history — the opening on Sunday of the first section of the Second Avenue subway.

But for longtime supporters and the many skeptics in their golden years, it is a joyous moment that took a very long time to arrive. As the project dragged on for nearly a century, they lost spouses and colleagues. They watched New York City decline and flourish, and plans for the Second Avenue line start up again
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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby railfan365 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:34 am

Definitely, Phase I will make some of my commutes easier while I'll still be living on UES. HOWEVER, the MTA has acknowledged that it will take another 10 years to get Phase II open to the public. And nothing's in the works at all for Phase III or beyond, which I don't expect to live long enough to see the line extended south of 62nd Street.

Following other posts about why it takes exponentially longer to build exponentially less subway thanb it did prior to 1968, I wish to cite 3 of things that had a bearing on Phase I taking as long as it did to be created:

1. Mr. Prendergast stated publicly that one of the ways that they speeded the pace toward then end, besides working the construction sites 24/7, was shifting to doing tasks in parallel that were formerly done in series.

2. There were several episodes of discovering that workers at 86th Street were goofing off at times.

3. When the governor started putting pressure on to speed the pace, he overrode some of the MTA managers who casually suggested that the target date for completion again be pushed off for a year or 2.

While the basis for why subway construction takes much longer than it used to may be more complicated, it seems to me that it includes an instituionalized attitude that it's okay to work slow, take slower, longer ways to get things done, and that the time element isn't critical (as in "If it doesn't get done now, it'll be okay to get it done 5 years from now). I think that the rest of the SAS would get done at a much faster pace if they revampt the internal work ethic.
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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:23 am

Times do change, Mr. Railfan 365. Back when the IRT was built, there wasn't the "who's on First" environment found in bureaucracies of today. No need for the consultant's report, the EIS, and there was a mite bit less underground infrastructure to bump into.

Back when I took my 3rd Ave L ride noted earlier, Barbara Streisand was "Second Hand Rose from Second Avenue". The "Upper East Side" pretty well stopped at Lex or just a little East (be it assured, my Mother and Father's apartment at 157E 75th was not low rent), and Third Ave resembled an un-gentrified 'Outer Borough" (Lime Green taxicabs) area of today.

Well, with "MegaMillion Condos" now over on York Ave, I think the 2nd Ave Line's time is now.
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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby GirlOnTheTrain » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:57 pm

railfan365 wrote:3. When the governor started putting pressure on to speed the pace, he overrode some of the MTA managers who casually suggested that the target date for completion again be pushed off for a year or 2.


You mean when he decided to adopt it as his pet project, take credit for it and then will throw hardworking RTO crews under the bus come negotiation time in a couple of months...
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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:22 pm

Gray Lady spoke today:

http://nytimes.com/2016/12/30/opinion/n ... erdue.html

Fair Use:

New Yorkers have severely diminished expectations for infrastructure, little reason to believe that projects will be finished in their lifetimes, or that builders can take on more than one thing at a time, or move any way but fitfully: expanding the No. 7 line one year, then Second Avenue, someday East Side Access for the Long Island Rail Road, someday Moynihan Station. Riders descending into the new 96th Street station will see, high above them on a beam, the word “Excelsior,” Latin for “ever upward,” and New York’s brash state motto. It’s fitting for a state-run project, but maybe a little odd for one that took almost 100 years, and goes upward only for about 30 blocks.
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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby BigUglyCat » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:34 pm

I've been wondering how long it will be before someone tacks a picture of Marvel's Stan Lee up by that "Excelsior." The word has been a favorite of Mr. Lee for many years.
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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby railfan365 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:09 am

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Times do change, Mr. Railfan 365. Back when the IRT was built, there wasn't the "who's on First" environment found in bureaucracies of today. No need for the consultant's report, the EIS, and there was a mite bit less underground infrastructure to bump into.

Back when I took my 3rd Ave L ride noted earlier, Barbara Streisand was "Second Hand Rose from Second Avenue". The "Upper East Side" pretty well stopped at Lex or just a little East (be it assured, my Mother and Father's apartment at 157E 75th was not low rent), and Third Ave resembled an un-gentrified 'Outer Borough" (Lime Green taxicabs) area of today.

Well, with "MegaMillion Condos" now over on York Ave, I think the 2nd Ave Line's time is now.



Mr. Norman, what I disagree with your post about is the following:

1. You explain as if I don't already understand that what's changed in public transport is the culture of confusion and complications that didn't exist 80 or 115 years ago. However, I did refer in my to things being more complicated, and my whole point is that MTA has internalized an attitude of carelssness, neglect, and delay, and that infrastructure delays would be reduced if that changes.

2. You explain about the Second Avenue Subway being needed now. Well, everybody in the world that knows about urban living and subways knows that. And back when the original IRT underground was built, there was a need for serving Second Avenue which is why there were Second and Third Avenue Els.
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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby rr503 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:35 pm

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/601340/

It's open!
I rode the 2nd (?) train in. I reccommend all go before the new stations get dirtied. They're great!
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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby Head-end View » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:12 pm

It will be interesting to see in a few months if the same kinds of problems that afflict the Hudson Yards Station also develop in the new stations on Second Ave. Especially considering that the completion was so rushed. Anyone taking bets on how long until the first station escalator craps out and doesn't get fixed for months?
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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby Gilbert B Norman » Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:42 am

First, Mr. Railfan 365, if you hold that I plagiarized your previously posted thoughts, then please accept my apology for so doing. Be it assured, such was quite unintentional.

To continue, Gray Lady reported Sunday on the consequences of the line opening - higher rents:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/30/nyreg ... rries.html

Fair Use:

..People living near three new stations at 72nd, 86th and 96th Streets could face rent increases as high as $462 per month, according to a report by StreetEasy, a real estate website. Sleek high-rises are already popping up above the walk-up apartment buildings that have served as first homes for many New Yorkers.

One of those is Dina Zingaro, who gravitated to the neighborhood when she moved from New Jersey. She and a roommate pay $2,400 a month for a two-bedroom apartment on the fifth floor of a walk-up building.

While the new line will shorten her trip to work, she worries that it could also bring a major rent increase and ultimately push her out of Manhattan


Today, she reports on the opening:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/01/nyreg ... tears.html

Fair Use:

Finally.

The Second Avenue subway opened in New York City on Sunday, with thousands of riders flooding into its polished stations to witness a piece of history nearly a century in the making.

They descended beneath the streets of the Upper East Side of Manhattan to board Q trains bound for Coney Island in Brooklyn. They cheered. Their eyes filled with tears. They snapped selfies in front of colorful mosaics lining the walls of the stations.

It was the first day of 2017, and it felt like a new day for a city that for so long struggled to build this sorely needed subway line. In a rare display of unbridled optimism from hardened New Yorkers, they arrived with huge grins and wide eyes, taking in the bells and whistles at three new stations.

“I was very choked up,” Betsy Morris, 70, said as she rode the first train to leave the 96th Street station, at noon. “How do you explain something that you never thought would happen? It’s going to change the way everybody lives as far as commuting goes


Finally, the MTA already has an updated map download at their site. Of interest, I guess, the new line would be a BMT, if those designations remained operative. For what it be worth, I remember using terms IRT, BMT, and IND with my 39 yo Niece, who resided until last June (now Pymble NSW AU) at around 86th Street Brooklyn on the R Line. Imagine the eyes rolling and "huh" when I said, "you're on the BMT?".
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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby SouthernRailway » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:59 pm

I also took the Second Avenue Subway yesterday, on opening day. The stations are beautiful and the track is very smooth. The MTA created a very nice new line, and I'm very impressed.

(Sidenote: I am not too sympathetic to people whose rents are going up in nearby areas: they had LOWER rents for years due to the construction and have known about the new line; just what were they expecting would happen to their rents, and why didn't they buy a place at lower cost in the past few years?)
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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby Allan » Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:04 pm

"Of interest, I guess, the new line would be a BMT,"

No, it is considered IND. There are signs directing the Q train crews heading northbound after leaving 57/7 to switch their radios from B1 frequency to B2 (and for southbound Q train crews leaving Lex/63 to switch from B2 to B1).

There are no "split division" stations. Even Queensboro Plaza is 100% B1 (BMT) for operational purposes. The 7 line, although it is an IRT line, uses the B1 radio frequency for it's entire length.
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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby italianstallion » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:43 pm

Well, your own post contradicts your argument. You say the line is considered IND because it uses an IND radio frequency. Then you say the the 7 line uses the BMT radio for its entire length. Yet nobody seriously considers the 7 to be a BMT line. The radio frequencies are irrelevant. The SAS should be a BMT because the Q (Brighton-Broadway) is a BMT - and the SAS is merely a 4 station extension of the Q.
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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby Allan » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:30 pm

I am talking OPERATIONALLY not railfan-wise.

From a historical stand-point the original plans for the SAS was intended to be built by the City as part of the IND. Had it happened as planned even the extension to the Bronx would have resulted in the Pelham Bay line switched over to IND.

The Lex/63rd St station was built as a new route for the F train which is an IND line. So in effect, the IND claims that area.

Who knows, perhaps one day they may send the F up the SAS and the Q along to Queens Blvd (I doubt it but it could happen).
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Re: Second Ave Subway Construction thru Phase I open

Postby railfan365 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:00 pm

Two points: 1, To Gilbert Norman - I wasn't thinking plagiarism. I think we had a little communication gap.

2. Regarding IND, BMT, IRT, and BLT: Those distinctions are no longer relevant except for historical references. Now it's A Division which does not include SAS, and B Division, which does. There's so much overlap between for IND and BMT that arguing the point is like trying to untangle a bowl of spaghetti.
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