Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construction

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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby Jeff Smith » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:32 am

Not that Wiki is the most trustworthy (and needs an update considering Phase I completion): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrystie_ ... Connection

The connection was originally conceived as part of the long delayed Second Avenue Subway, and is one of the few completed sections of the project.[1]


Not sure if it would end up as part of any future Phase.
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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby DogBert » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:14 pm

The chinatown section is under Confucius Plaza, at the foot of the Manhattan Bridge.

This article has some interesting commentary on the phase II pricetag:
http://ltvsquad.com/2016/12/30/4-little ... budgeting/

In a nutshell, if they include the tunnel in Harlem that was built in the 1970s (and so far there's only rumor that they won't), the total length for new tunnel construction is less than one mile.
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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby rr503 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:38 pm

Jeff Smith wrote:Not that Wiki is the most trustworthy (and needs an update considering Phase I completion): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrystie_ ... Connection

The connection was originally conceived as part of the long delayed Second Avenue Subway, and is one of the few completed sections of the project.[1]


Not sure if it would end up as part of any future Phase.

It can't. I don't believe there is space for another pair of tracks on the same level as the B/D under Christie. I believe the current plan is to run the tracks under the B/D

Honestly though, subway engineers have become waaaaaaay too fixated on deep bore tunnels. Just build them w/ cut/cover near the surface, making stations cheaper and easier access, and the whole process a lot simpler.
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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby Backshophoss » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:16 pm

You have Con-Ed electric,NY Telephone,Water,Sewer,and Steam lines,just barely under the pavement.
Then you need to get under the exisiting subway tunnels,and the supersized Water Tunnels.
No other choise but to go the deep bore route.
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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby alewifebp » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:34 pm

Yeah, look at how long it took just to get the TBM entry/exit points completed with all of the utility relocation that they needed. Not to mention the impracticability both in terms of traffic and political will to have torn up streets for long periods of time.
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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby DogBert » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:54 am

I suspect the pendulum might swing the other way against streets torn up. Yes, it'll kill local businesses, but subway overcrowding/delays/etc might kill NYC in the long run. Everyone I've spoken to on this topic says they need to build more, faster. (the key of course would be 'faster' - can't just cut a hole in the street and leave it there for years).
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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby rr503 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:02 pm

My thoughts exactly.
When the original subways were built, they had to deal with similarly insane subterrenian messes, but it got done. No pain, no gain.
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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby Greg Moore » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:10 pm

I tend to suspect that if you told the businesses, "Yes, we're going to completely dig stuff up, but we'll be done 4x faster" they might buy into it.

Honestly, comparing how we do things in NYC compared to say Paris shows we're paying a LOT more for a lot less.
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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby DogBert » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:42 am

Let's say you're a restaurant owner with a 10 year lease, do yo want construction outside for a year, or 5-6 years?

i forget the exact timeline but it was roughly a year for them to rebuild the section of 1 line tunnel that caved in on 9/11. Grant it the whole area was closed to the public, but...

The deep bore tunnels are also significantly harder to repair. The new South Ferry is still out after Sandy. It was filled with expensive ventilation equipment, elevators, escalators that needs replacing. The cost of maintaining all this hardware jacks up expenses for the MTA for decades to come. I get the need for elevators for ADA compliance, but there's something to be said for a station one level below the street where most people don't need any technology beyond their own legs to get in and out of the station.
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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby Head-end View » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:30 pm

Dogbert may have a point. Often simpler is better and we sometimes over-engineer things to the point of not being practical.
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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby andegold » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:56 am

In reading what I could find of plans for phase III it seems that construction will use the TBM from the current southern end of the line to 58th street, then cut and cover for a very short stretch of only a couple of blocks and then resume with the TBM. I know there is a large water main running under 58th street which, combined with seeking the least disruption possible to the Queensborough Bridge lower level approach and exit, would explain the TBM between 63rd and 58th but why would they switch to cut and cover for such a short distance? How will they get the TBM in and out around that short stretch?
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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby Kamen Rider » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:10 am

much like the 7 extension and the 34th street station cavern, they can dig the cut and cover section while the TBM is digging from the existing phase 1 section, and then tow it through pre dug area when it arrives
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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby railfan365 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:26 pm

As to any questions about what expanding on the SAS will include, the reading that I've done indicates the following:

1. Phase II will definitely include the 110th to 120th Street section of tunnel, which will have to have a section of the wall on each side torn out at and in proximity to 116th Street to build the station that's been planned for that spot. That will leave less than a mile of new tunnel boring to be done. The main awkwardness might be having to bore between 105th Street to 110th, and North of 120th separately. I previously said that with the end of Phase I and the beginning of that tunnel segment being separated by very little more than the space where the 106th Street Station should go, that they should have included that station in Phase I and had tail tracks go to 120th. But then I realized that if they had did it that way, then construction of the 116th Street Station would have interfered with having uptown car storage.

2. The segment of tunnel at Confucious Plaza will NOT be incorporated into Phase IV. The full SAS that's been most recently promised had the downtown routing changed from what was planned in the 1960's.

3. As to the construction methods to be used, all I know is what I read here.
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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby Arlington » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:27 pm

SAS 2 & 3 are on Trump's infrastructure priority list:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politic ... 164.html#0
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Re: Second Avenue Subway Phase II - IV Planning / Construct

Postby Passenger » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:22 pm

Bravo.

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