R211 Acquisition Next Generation Subway Car w. Gangways

Discussion relating to the past and present operations of the NYC Subway, PATH, and Staten Island Railway (SIRT).

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Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Car w. Gangways

Postby jackintosh11 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:45 pm

Wouldn't it be possible to make the sets have 4 B cars and 1 A car? If a car has a problem, just take half the set out of service. It could have some sort of door or cover for when this needs to happen.
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Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Car w. Gangways

Postby Fan Railer » Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:19 pm

Sets are designed so that A cars have specific components that the B cars don't and vice versa. This means that you need a specific ratio of cars in order to run a set. On current NTT equipment, you need 1 A car for every 2 B cars.
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Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Car w. Gangways

Postby jackintosh11 » Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:51 pm

Only the R188 meets that ratio, all the others have 2 A/3 B or 2 A/2 B. Also, if that's the case just make one A car a cabless car.
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Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Car w. Gangways

Postby tommyboy6181 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:56 pm

Here is something interesting that came out. CRRC, the Chinese state-owned transit company apparently has bid on the R211 project. Even more interesting is that they plan to potentially open a plant in Fort Edward, NY for the contract and collaborate with Bombardier as part of the contract if they win it.
Link: http://www.bizjournals.com/albany/news/ ... ports.html

In a short period of time, CRRC has won the following projects:
1) Boston (Orange and Red Line car replacement)
2) Chicago
3) Los Angeles (just awarded within the past 7 days and it may replace the entire Breda subway fleet on the Red and Purple Lines)

That's a lot of railcars in a short period of time.
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Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Car w. Gangways

Postby jackintosh11 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:59 am

Yes, because going with an asian manufacturer with NO US experience has worked out so well before...
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Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Car w. Gangways

Postby Head-end View » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:30 pm

Jackintosh11, I couldn't have said it better myself! Just ask SEPTA or MBTA. NY should stick with Kawasaki and Bombardier. Cheaper often doesn't mean better. Sometimes you have to pay more to get more. And I can't believe MBTA is about to make the same mistake twice. What are they thinkin'?
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Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Car w. Gangways

Postby tommyboy6181 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:04 am

From what I understand from the article link, CRRC would be working with Bombardier on the project if they win it. IMO, my guess on how this would work out is that Bombardier would likely provide the technical direction and source components for the project and then CRRC would do the heavy construction. Both companies have worked together on projects in Asia before and CRRC actually has built Bombardier Movia cars in the past. Still, CRRC for right now is unproven in the US. Also, I have read stories on how they screwed up building projects that Kawasaki engineered in Singapore (C151A cars that were recalled) and various others on top of that.
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Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Car w. Gangways

Postby tommyboy6181 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:56 pm

Here are the vendors that have either bid or expressed interest in the project. The bid documentation is here: http://web.mta.info/nyct/procure/vendor ... 211phl.pdf

- Alstom
- Bombardier
- CRRC
- Hitachi Rail Italy (formerly AnsaldoBreda)
- Kawasaki
- Siemens

Now, there are some interesting things that I got out of the documentation here. First, Siemens has expressed interest in the project. It's unknown if they would want to build the actual subway cars or if it is just to supply propulsion systems, but they could definitely do either. Toshiba has also expressed interest in the project. My guess is that if CRRC or Kawasaki were to win the contract, they could provide communication systems and/or propulsion which would be similar to the Kawasaki 7000 series in Washington.

Hitachi Rail Italy actually showed interest in the project as well and that is unusual to see with a NYC contract. Now that AnsaldoBreda was purchased by Hitachi, Hitachi seems to want to expand in the US. However, the former AnsaldoBreda has really scewed up many contracts around the world and I'm still leary of them.

CRRC has mentioned that they would build a plant in Fort Edward, NY if they were to win the contract. One thing that was also mentioned in a story link I previously posted is that they were looking to work with Bombardier on the project. Overseas, they have done that several times and actually built the Bombardier Movia series of trains in several Chinese cities including Shenzhen. They've also partnered with Kawasaki and built trains in Singapore and then with Alstom in Shanghai.
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Re: R211 Next Generation Subway Car w. Gangways

Postby Tadman » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:52 am

I love the wide doors and gangways. The subway is primarily a rush hour tool for getting people to work, and under crush loads, those features are so helpful. Here in Chicago, we let Stevie Wonder and Helen Keller design subway cars and then every Tom Dick and Harry complains about it. We had one order of cars with NYC-style seating and people got upset. Fun fact, people hate change and love to complain. Now we're going back to Amtrak-style seating, because hey, everybody needs a seat...

As a guy that rode every day for quite a few years, the wide doors would help immensely. The gangways also would eliminate that vestibule crowding as folks think the ends of the cars are "not for me". Yeah, they're for you, scootch on down...
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Bombardier shut out of R211 contract

Postby GirlOnTheTrain » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:46 pm

Saw this link elsewhere. Seems their performance (or lackthereof) on the 179 contract has precluded their participation in the 211 contract.
http://montrealgazette.com/business/local-business/bombardier-shut-out-of-n-y-subway-contract-because-of-poor-performance-report

In an internal memo, Benoît Brossoit, the president of Bombardier Transport for the Americas, is quoted as noting that “our poor performance and serious delays … sealed the fate of our bid. Our actions exacerbated an already difficult transit situation in New York, and our client’s decision shows that the market is no longer disposed to accept delays in performance and to submit to the consequences of our actions.”
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Re: Bombardier shut out of R211 contract

Postby BuddCar711 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:52 am

Looks like Hyundai Rotem moved up a step in potential candidates :wink:
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Re: Bombardier shut out of R211 contract

Postby GirlOnTheTrain » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:11 pm

They need to stick to building automobiles...and this is coming from someone who has driven a Hyundai for the last eight years ;)
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Re: Bombardier shut out of R211 contract

Postby railfan365 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:08 pm

I expect that who ever they buy form, NYC transit will have their usual focus on the latest technology.
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Re: Bombardier shut out of R211 contract

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:57 pm

GirlOnTheTrain wrote:They need to stick to building automobiles...and this is coming from someone who has driven a Hyundai for the last eight years ;)

There's always room for improvement at Rotem, just like when Huyndai automobiles first came to U.S., they were of questionable reliability, now improved to match the major brands.

This would be a blow to the Plattsburgh assembly plant, which opened in December 1995 to serve MTA and gain benefits for "made in NY" programs. BBD has major investments there, including expansion to allow full stainless steel welding and fabrication with car shells built on site.
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Re: Bombardier shut out of R211 contract

Postby Head-end View » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:39 pm

What sort of problems is Bombardier having building the R-179's and why? Haven't they been a relatively good builder in past years?
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