M9 Cars Design Delivery and Acceptance

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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby lirr42 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:22 pm

Jeff Smith wrote:One other question: will the M9's be just that, i.e. just M9's? Or will there be an "A" version? A lot of my reading has discussed the inter-operability between LIRR and MNRR.

I assume that at a minimum that means the dual DC shoes. But since there's no direct DC connection, what's the difference? I understand having dual shoes on the M-8's for PSAS. Is this just to pool the entire fleet in case there are issues? Are we talking coupling, train lines, signals, controls, etc.? What were the differences in the past?

Are their plans somewhere for electrifying the Empire Connection south of SD? What would that be, four or five miles? I guess that would be similar to the DC extension from Woodlawn to Pelham...

I could have been misled with this too, but from the wordings of the RFI, RFP, and subsequent press releases from the MTA, I am under the impression that the M9 will be one car for both the LIRR and MNCR. They will have virtually everything the same and will most likely have double sided shoes and likely both cab signal systems. While there wouldn't been any direct connection (there are currently no pans on electrifying the Empire Connection, those only exist in some people's minds...) I think just having one design for simplicity's sake is the main idea here. The base order of 92 cars for the LIRR only will be financed through the 2009-2014 capital plan. Subsequent option cars (including any possible option cars for MNCR) would be financed through future capital plans.

The M9A cars would be additional cars for the LIRR only. They would most likely be procured with funding that is related in some sort to East Side Access. I'm not sure exactly what that entails, it probably has to do with some sort of federal grants that were earmarked for ESA. Cars purchased with that money can't really be wondering around Metro-North, so these cars would be in a separate order. That separate order will come much further down the line after most of the M9's are already in production. They will be visually similar to the M9's and they must be interoperable with them (Kawasaki must provide any relevant technical information about the M9's should the M9A contract go to a different manufacturer.) And if you believe everything you read in the LIRR forum, they might even be fitted out with some special belt-pack technology experiment for yard movements or something like that.

I also said this stuff in a sightly different way in this comment on my site.
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby DutchRailnut » Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:43 pm

Don't forget the press releases are written by non-railroaders, so take things with a grain of salt.
the way it reads , does not guarantee its how it will be.
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby Fan Railer » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:19 pm

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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby runningwithscalpels » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:24 pm

Front of it is hideous in yellow, but in blue I don't think they'll look too bad.
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Re: M9 Cars Design Delivery and Acceptance

Postby Jeff Smith » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:06 am

Thought I'd refresh the topic and provide a couple of links and developments:

First, in the news: LoHud

Metro-North: New train cars, station upgrades on way
<SNIP>
Next-gen train cars: The railroad is looking to spend more than $500 million to give passengers a more comfortable ride as early as 2019.

Many of the cars on the Harlem and Hudson lines are 30 years old and showing their age. Sometimes a train will feature both the older electric cars (the M3 fleet) and newer ones from the M7 fleet, further illustrating the differences.
<SNIP>
The MTA has a standing contract with Yonkers-based Kawasaki Rail Car to build up to 280 cars known as M9s. Built as "married pairs," the cars will feature larger windows, an automated public address system, single doors and upgraded heating and air conditioning systems.
<SNIP>
They'll also seat 221 people — eight more than the M7 pairs.
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Re: M9 Cars Design Delivery and Acceptance

Postby Jeff Smith » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:07 am

And official sources:

http://web.mta.info/lirr/about/Procurem ... Status.htm

M-9 Passenger Railcar Procurement

Current Status

Pursuant to MTA Board approval received on September 18, 2013 Long Island Rail Road (LIRR), on behalf of itself and Metro North Railroad (MNR), awarded a contract to Kawasaki Rail Car of Yonkers , NY to design, build, test and deliver 92 M-9 Railcars together with certain Apparatus (spare parts, special tools, bench test equipment, etc.) required to operate and maintain the cars. The Contract contains Options for up to an additional 584 M-9 Cars to be shared between LIRR and MNR, pursuant to authorization of additional funding in the future MTA Capital Program.


and older news from 2013

http://www.mta.info/news/2013/09/19/new ... rth-fleets

New Railcars for LIRR & Metro-North Fleets
Select Language​▼
September 19th, 2013

The MTA Board has approved a contract with Kawasaki Rail Car, Inc., to design and build the next generation of rail cars for the Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North Railroad. The MTA expects up to 676 cars will be assembled at Kawasaki’s plant in Yonkers and anticipates up to 1,500 people will be employed in New York State. The contract will have an ultimate value of $1.8 billion if all 676 cars are built.
“We have been constantly working to improve the state’s infrastructure and transit systems to better serve New Yorkers,” said Governor Andrew M. Cuomo. “This contract will not only make the Metro-North and LIRR more efficient and resilient, but the additional cars will be assembled right here in New York, helping create jobs and grow the regional economy. I thank Kawasaki Rail Car for their partnership and look forward to seeing further upgrades to our mass transit system.”
The cars will be used to replace 1980s-era M3 railcars that serve the LIRR’s eight electric branches and Metro-North’s Harlem and Hudson Lines and to expand fleet capacity for both railroads to allow for ridership growth. A portion of this contract and related development costs are funded with $355.5 million from the MTA’s 2010-2014 Capital Plan. The initial contract will provide 92 cars to the LIRR. If funding is available in the forthcoming 2015-2019 MTA Capital Plan and the railroads choose to exercise future options, Kawasaki will manufacture up to 304 additional cars for the LIRR and up to 280 cars for Metro-North.
The cars will incorporate the most successful and popular features of the railroads’ two recent electric car classes, the M7s that serve the LIRR and Metro-North’s Harlem and Hudson Lines, and the M8s serving Metro-North’s New Haven Line. The cars will have larger windows than the M3 cars they are replacing, automated public address announcements in car interiors and exteriors, and single leaf doors for improved reliability. They will also continue the M7/M8 configuration for heating, ventilation and air conditioning systems that has proven to be more resilient in extreme weather and more effective at providing customer comfort in all types of weather conditions.
"I am happy to congratulate Kawasaki Rail Car on winning the M-9 contract," said Senate Democratic Conference Leader Andrea Stewart-Cousins. "I have had the privilege of working with Kawasaki since they moved to Yonkers. Their presence supports the regional economy and sustains hundreds of jobs in the City's downtown. These are some of the reasons why I am proud to support them and look forward to many more years of partnership."
Assemblyman J. Gary Pretlow said, “This contract is good news for our state. With its highly reputable track record as the MTA'a leading and trusted supplier of new subway cars, riders who rely on Metro-North (and the LIRR) can be assured that the safety, reliability and efficiency of the M9 rail cars will enhance their daily commute. I am thrilled that Kawasaki Rail Car, Inc. will continue to serve the constituents of Westchester County, New York City and Long Island.”
“While we spend a lot of time and energy modernizing our railroads’ aging infrastructure, few improvements are more visible and more welcomed by customers than updating our trains,” said MTA Chairman and CEO Thomas F. Prendergast. “Our last major joint railroad car procurement produced highly dependable trains that have helped improve our On Time Performance and are providing years of reliable and safe transportation. We anticipate that this latest update to our fleet will produce the same positive results.”
As with railroads’ previous electric car classes, the majority of cars under this contract will be manufactured as “married pairs” comprised of two nearly identical cars permanently coupled together and sharing a restroom, cabs for engineer or conductor, and electrical systems. Each pair is designed to seat 221 passengers, eight more than the M7 pairs.
The MTA benefited from robust competition for this contract. The MTA, with the LIRR acting as the lead agency, initially advertised a Request For Proposals (RFP) for the cars in June 2012. Twelve carbuilders received initial RFP packages from the MTA containing technical details of the cars. After initial consultations, the MTA determined that six of them were qualified to submit initial price and technical proposals, and three ultimately did so. Best and final offers from each of the responding carbuilders were received in August 2013.
The proposals for the contract were evaluated on a host of financial and technical criteria, including price, percentage of New York State content going into the cars, and the percentage of U.S. domestically produced steel used in the cars. The winning proposer, Kawasaki, provided the most attractive pricing.
The M3 cars being replaced by the M9 cars entered service between 1984 and 1986. Upon their retirement, they will have served the region for more than 30 years.
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Re: M9 Cars Design Delivery and Acceptance

Postby Jeff Smith » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:13 am

In any case, LIRR gets the first 92; after that, I'm not sure how the distribution will go. So you'll still be looking at M-3a's on the Hudson and Harlem for the near future.

Since this is a shared fleet order, it will be interesting to see if and how they are deployed and "shared". Foamer questions that come to mind are branding; will they be blue? Yellow? Will they be generically labeled MTA or will they actually be assigned to a railroad and only shared as necessary? I imagine because of logistics there won't be much if any back and forth.

Operationally, how are they going to handle the different signal systems? And finally, I guess they will be equipped with the same DC shoes that M8's have.
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Re: M9 Cars Design Delivery and Acceptance

Postby DutchRailnut » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:18 am

shared order does not mean the feel will be shared
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Re: M9 Cars Design Delivery and Acceptance

Postby Jeff Smith » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:33 am

That's what I assumed; in practice, you'd only see cars moved in some type of emergency. But they are inter-operable on either system, right?
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Re: M9 Cars Design Delivery and Acceptance

Postby DutchRailnut » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:35 am

not unless LIRR gets a same ACSES system, Radio's etc etc , the M-7 was shared order so were M-3 and M-1 but non were ever moved other than a few test trains.
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Re: M9 Cars Design Delivery and Acceptance

Postby Jeff Smith » Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:41 am

Dutch, M8's are the only fleet I know that can operate on all lines, as they have the over/under capable DC shoes. The way I've been reading the M9 is that they will also have that setup (sans pantographs, of course). The M9a is a tack-on order at the end, rather than specific to MNRR as it has been in the past. So to me, that means the "innards" are the same. The M-1 through M-7 fleet had "A" variants specific to MNRR; yes, same car type, but different internal systems for signals and power.
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Re: M9 Cars Design Delivery and Acceptance

Postby DutchRailnut » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:10 am

believe me the M-9's MN get, are specific build for MN.

and M-8's are build with Amtrak trackage in mind, not LIRR, from Harold to NYP the LIRR runs on Amtrak and so eventually will M-8 (maybe)
.
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Re: M9 Cars Design Delivery and Acceptance

Postby Fan Railer » Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:17 pm

Tentative delivery schedule (has since been delayed, iirc)
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Re: M9 Cars Design Delivery and Acceptance

Postby Jeff Smith » Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:25 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:believe me the M-9's MN get, are specific build for MN.

and M-8's are build with Amtrak trackage in mind, not LIRR, from Harold to NYP the LIRR runs on Amtrak and so eventually will M-8 (maybe)
.


I'm not asking this right. I must be following the Facebook group too much.

Will the M9's have dual capable DC shoes? Whether or not MNRR or LIRR specific?
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Re: M9 Cars Design Delivery and Acceptance

Postby DutchRailnut » Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:41 pm

As far as I can see in specifications, they will NOT get dual purpose third rail shoes.
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