M9 Cars Design Delivery and Acceptance

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby ajp » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:36 pm

in the white plains citizens news reporter WWW.wpcnr.com has an article dated 9/19 stating
NY State has signed contracts for m-9 cars first for the LIRR then Metro North
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby lirr42 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:05 pm

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:...but it depends a ton on what LIRR needs for running dual modes from diesel territory into GCT. If they decide to junk the DM30AC's it could end up being a very large combo order split between both MTA carriers. Or might not.

There will be no dual modes from diesel territory into GCT, they won't fit into the 63rd Street Tunnels.
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby MattW » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:13 am

lirr42 wrote:
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:...but it depends a ton on what LIRR needs for running dual modes from diesel territory into GCT. If they decide to junk the DM30AC's it could end up being a very large combo order split between both MTA carriers. Or might not.

There will be no dual modes from diesel territory into GCT, they won't fit into the 63rd Street Tunnels.

Existing dual modes won't fit, but I can't believe it is impossible to design a dual mode to fit within the clearances of ESA. Perhaps LIRR could request someone design one (issue RFI? is that how it would work?) and I'm sure someone could come up with one. Whether it's economically feasible is another question (repeat of the ALP45DP?), but that decision would be made later anyways depending on what LIRR can get. Then there's also the possibility of a DEMU. Again, whether it's realistic or not is not an issue for just now necessarily.
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:41 am

MattW wrote:
lirr42 wrote:
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:...but it depends a ton on what LIRR needs for running dual modes from diesel territory into GCT. If they decide to junk the DM30AC's it could end up being a very large combo order split between both MTA carriers. Or might not.

There will be no dual modes from diesel territory into GCT, they won't fit into the 63rd Street Tunnels.

Existing dual modes won't fit, but I can't believe it is impossible to design a dual mode to fit within the clearances of ESA. Perhaps LIRR could request someone design one (issue RFI? is that how it would work?) and I'm sure someone could come up with one. Whether it's economically feasible is another question (repeat of the ALP45DP?), but that decision would be made later anyways depending on what LIRR can get. Then there's also the possibility of a DEMU. Again, whether it's realistic or not is not an issue for just now necessarily.


Getting a little off-topic. But...at any rate...2020 is roughly when the next procurement decision figures to hit (give or take 1-2 years) for those vehicles. DM30's will be over 20 years old and relatively unsuccessful one-and-done's that won't merit a rebuild, P32's will be near the end of their post-rebuild service lives. A lot is going to change about service configurations in the 2020's that they'll have to plan for with the # of units they stock on the roster, but can't accurately pin today. Therefore that's really really not a procurement taking up anyone's mindshare today.


Addressing seating capacity on the Hudson/Harlem...yeah, big mindshare taken up by that dilemma. And interesting to see how it'll play out.
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:58 am

Thomas wrote:What is the height of the 63rd street tunnels (and shortest tunnels) between Harold Interlocking and Grand Central Terminal as part of the East Side Access Project?


That's a question for the LIRR forum, not Metro North. I am sure the ESA thread has the exact dimensions if you search for it.


The M7 is designed for the max dimensions of ESA. That was a purposeful design spec considered decades in advance since the shortest tunnel segment is the one pre-existing from the 1970's. The M9's will match that dimension. Metro North isn't quite as constrained into GCT, which is why they are considering going taller for their 3rd rail-only vehicles. Otherwise, they keep to the LIRR specs (as they have done on all previous orders) for all single-level 3rd rail EMU's because it helps the manufacturing and maintenance economy of scale immensely to have a completely common carbody design for both MTA railroads.
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby Jeff Smith » Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:55 am

ADMIN NOTE:

This is the M-9 thread. We will be making all stops along the M-9 procurement and delivery process. We will not be making any stops at dual mode, diesel replacement, ESA, LIRR, etc. That can be discussed here: MNRR Joint EMU Procurement with LIRR - Alt/Successor to EMU ;)

I tried to split and merge some of the posts here the best I could and deleted some of the others. That's a shame, because some of the info was great, and I sincerely apologize for the collateral damage.

One warning was issued to a habitual offender who I've spoken to about thread hijacks. If you see an obviously off-topic post, please use the report function. Such a post would be "when is MNRR replacing it's diesel fleet", "what is the height of the ESA tunnel" or "what is the capacity of a bi-level" in the M-9 thread. I'm not trying to be mean here, I'm trying to keep things on course. I know many are eager to learn. The search function is a wonderful thing.

If you see a way off-post topic, report and don't respond. If we start getting off track, I would recommend a response and steering it back on track. I hate losing good material. For those who have unrelated queries come to them, please use the search function or start a new thread.

My apologies again for intruding on a good discussion.
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby Jeff Smith » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:01 pm

The official release:

Billions To Build New Rail Cars

To Be Constructed In Yonkers
Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo announced that the board of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) has approved a contract with Kawasaki Rail Car, Inc. for up to $1.83 billion to design and build the next generation of rail cars for the Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) and Metro-North Railroad.

The MTA expects up to 676 cars will be assembled at Kawasaki’s plant in Yonkers and anticipates up to 1,500 people will be employed in New York State.

“We have been constantly working to improve the state’s infrastructure and transit systems to better serve New Yorkers,” said Cuomo. “This contract will not only make the Metro-North and LIRR more efficient and resilient, but the additional cars will be assembled right here in New York, helping create jobs and grow the regional economy. I thank Kawasaki Rail Car for their partnership and look forward to seeing further upgrades to our mass transit system.”

The cars will be used to replace 1980s-era M3 railcars that serve the LIRR’s eight electric branches and Metro-North’s Harlem and Hudson Lines and to expand fleet capacity for both railroads to allow for ridership growth. A portion of this contract and related development costs are funded with $355.5 million from the MTA’s 2010-2014 Capital Plan. The initial contract will provide 92 cars to the LIRR.

If funding is available in the forthcoming 2015-2019 MTA Capital Plan and the railroads choose to exercise future options, Kawasaki will manufacture up to 304 additional cars for the LIRR and up to 280 cars for Metro-North.

The cars will incorporate the most successful and popular features of the railroads’ two recent electric car classes, the M7s that serve the LIRR and Metro-North’s Harlem and Hud- son Lines, and the M8s serving Metro-North’s New Haven Line.

The cars will have larger windows than the M3 cars they are replacing, automated public address announcements in car interiors and exteriors, and single leaf doors for improved reliability. They will also continue the M7/M8 configuration for heating, ventilation and air conditioning systems that has proven to be more resilient in extreme weather and more effective at providing customer comfort in all types of weather conditions.

“While we spend a lot of time and energy modernizing our railroads’ aging infrastructure, few improvements are more visible and more welcomed by customers than updating our trains,” said MTA Chairman and CEO Thomas F. Prendergast. “Our last major joint railroad car procurement produced highly dependable trains that have helped improve our on time performance and are providing years of reliable and safe transportation. We anticipate that this latest update to our fleet will produce the same positive results.”

As with railroads’ previous electric car classes, the majority of cars under this contract will be manufactured as “married pairs” composed of two nearly identical cars permanently coupled together and sharing a restroom, cabs for engineer or conductor, and electrical systems. Each pair is designed to seat 221 passengers, eight more than the M7 pairs.

The MTA benefited from competition for this contract. The MTA, with the LIRR acting as the lead agency, initially advertised a Request For Proposals (RFP) for the cars in June 2012. Twelve carbuilders received initial RFP packages from the MTA containing technical details of the cars.

After initial consultations, the MTA determined that six of them were qualified to submit initial price and technical proposals, and three ultimately did so. Best and final offers from each of the responding carbuilders were received in August 2013.

The proposals for the contract were evaluated on a host of financial and technical criteria, including price, percentage of New York State content going into the cars, and the percentage of U.S. domestically produced steel used in the cars. The winning proposer, Kawasaki, provided the most attractive pricing.

The M3 cars being replaced by the M9 cars entered service between 1984 and 1986. Upon their retirement, they will have served the region for more than 30 years.
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby NH2060 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:37 pm

Here's the official press release from the MTA website with a rendering of a MNR M-9. The black window trim really adds a nice touch :-)
http://new.mta.info/news/2013/09/19/new ... orth-fleet
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby lirr42 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:49 pm

I am quite fond of the black window trim that's seen on the M8's. Especially at the B-ends of the car.
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby Tadman » Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:57 pm

I like how they cited "larger windows" like they did something nice for the passengers. I bet they're just large enough to meet the new federal regs for window size. These regs were made because in an emergency, it's hard to get a stretcher with a man on it through the old smaller windows seen on Budd products from the past generations.
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby Jeff Smith » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:23 pm

lirr42 wrote:I am quite fond of the black window trim that's seen on the M8's. Especially at the B-ends of the car.


Have you seen that commercial? The mom tells her daughters it's a "smokey", i.e. the raccoon look of makeup.

I'm inclined to agree with Tad; I'm sure it's safety reg related to help evacuate people of, um, larger girth. Hey, I'm 6'0 200 and not as flexible as I was years ago, so I appreciate it.

So the contract is let. Of course, Kawasaki is still finishing up the M-8's. The first few of those were built in Japan, and then they moved the production to Nebraska. When they say they'll be assembled in Yonkers, does that mean the entire manufacturing process?

I.e. what I'm asking is, what exactly are the logistics? Will 100% of the assembly be done here with the parts shipped in? Will anything be done in NE? It seems to me K'saki will be busy a while with M-8's. Or will they be done with them by the time design is done and construction is ready to start? Just trying to get a handle on the timeline.
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby lirr42 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:29 pm

Mr. Smith, I am under the impression that the cars will be assembled entirely at Kawasaki's Lincoln, NE plant. By time they work up and finish all the designs, the M8 order will be just about wrapped up and the factories will be prime to crank out more M9's.

I was under the impression that the Yonkers plant would be tied up producing subway cars for the next while so the M9's would not be constructed there (there may be some modifications done there at a a later date, but they are to be built in NE).
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby Jeff Smith » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:41 pm

One other question: will the M9's be just that, i.e. just M9's? Or will there be an "A" version? A lot of my reading has discussed the inter-operability between LIRR and MNRR.

I assume that at a minimum that means the dual DC shoes. But since there's no direct DC connection, what's the difference? I understand having dual shoes on the M-8's for PSAS. Is this just to pool the entire fleet in case there are issues? Are we talking coupling, train lines, signals, controls, etc.? What were the differences in the past?

Are their plans somewhere for electrifying the Empire Connection south of SD? What would that be, four or five miles? I guess that would be similar to the DC extension from Woodlawn to Pelham...
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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby DutchRailnut » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:41 pm

The M-9's and M9a's will be assembled in Yonkers, the shells will probably still come from Lincoln Ne
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: M-9 Cars

Postby Jeff Smith » Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:42 pm

Thanks Mr. 42. I figured the work at Yonkers would not be the bulk of it. Would be great if Kawasaki could use some of the old rust belt manufacturing capacity around here that closed up long ago and hasn't been redeveloped...
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