MNRR PTC Status and Plans (ACSES)

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, Jeff Smith

MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby DutchRailnut » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:36 pm

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/mta_ ... 4yR3d6GDvK

By TOM NAMAKO Transit Reporter

Last Updated: 3:06 AM, March 1, 2010

Posted: 3:06 AM, March 1, 2010

It's the great train robbery -- and the feds are the stickup artists. Federal and congressional officials are demanding that the cash-strapped MTA drop $700 million on a safety program for Metro-North and LIRR that the agency insists it doesn't need, according to sources and memos. The feds want a system installed that allows a computer to reduce a train's speed in a number of situations. The MTA trains are already equipped with a similar system, but it kicks in only when one is in danger of crashing into another. The money would come from the MTA's 2010 capital program, the budget that funds mega-projects like the Second Avenue Subway and currently has a $10 billion funding gap.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer
User avatar
DutchRailnut
 
Posts: 21200
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: released from Stalag 13

Re: MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby Clean Cab. » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:12 pm

They don't have much of a choice. It's an FRA mandate.
Clean Cab.
 

Re: MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby Patrick A. » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:35 pm

How much more would an ACSES like system benefit MNR versus the current ATC that's in place?
I have lived to ride on the M8.

Complete Constant Tension on the New Haven Line ETC: Mid-2018
Patrick A.
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:52 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby LIRR272 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:53 am

If the ATC system fails, then the ACSES system takes over or any PTC system. Currently if the ATC system fails, then the train is governed by rules and the operation of the engineer who must know the rules. I'm not taking anything away from the engineer, but if he blows a Stop Signl with the ATC cut out, there is no recourse. With PTC or ACSES that will not happen.

Additionally, there are some areas on both railroads (maybe not the LIRR) that are considered Dark Territory. So there is your benefit.

MN and LIRR position has always been: "We have ATC so why do we need PTC" and that is what they passed onto the MTA.
LIRR272
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:41 pm
Location: Elmont NY

Re: MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby Steamboat Willie » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:08 am

If you have a speed failure, the rules are that you will be governed under an Absolute Block Signal. If in the event that an Absolute Block Signal cannot be displayed and you have a proceed cab, you have to receive permission from the RTC to accept and take it at Restricted Speed. The train will run at Restricted Speed until an Absolute Block Signal is displayed. Also, an ABS cannot be displayed for movements south of CP1 in the tunnel.
User avatar
Steamboat Willie
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:43 pm
Location: Iron Highway

Re: MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby LIRR272 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:28 am

Thanks Steamboat. But by your post, what happens below CP1 if you have a speed failure? I'm quite sure MN has rules on this. I'm not all too familiar with your rules.
LIRR272
 
Posts: 494
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:41 pm
Location: Elmont NY

Re: MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby MNCRR9000 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:19 pm

LIRR272 wrote:If the ATC system fails, then the ACSES system takes over or any PTC system. Currently if the ATC system fails, then the train is governed by rules and the operation of the engineer who must know the rules. I'm not taking anything away from the engineer, but if he blows a Stop Signl with the ATC cut out, there is no recourse. With PTC or ACSES that will not happen.

Additionally, there are some areas on both railroads (maybe not the LIRR) that are considered Dark Territory. So there is your benefit.

MN and LIRR position has always been: "We have ATC so why do we need PTC" and that is what they passed onto the MTA.


Out of curiosity on Metro-North is there any other dark territory besides the Danbury Branch ( going to get CTC soon), Waterbury Branch, and the Beacon Line which is out of service.

If I am not mistaken isn't the lower and upper level under interlocking rules?
MNCRR9000
 
Posts: 799
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 pm
Location: Syosset,NY

Re: MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby Steamboat Willie » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:35 pm

The reason an ABS cannot be displayed for movements south of CP1 is because the there is no way to ensure a clear block in the Upper/Lower level interlockings. You would be governed by either a Terminal Proceed, Terminal Approach, Terminal Restricting or a Stop Signal. The speed in the Upper/Lower level interlocking is restricted speed not exceeding 10MPH.

A little off topic, but if you were to get talked past a red where a split point derail is in place, such as CP241 (Norwalk) a qualified crew member must be in the head end of the movement. The RTC will ask the last name of the employee whom is present for the movement. I have done the move before where we got talked past the red and went onto track 1 for the turn, even though there is I believe 1150ft of in service track before the erected barricade is with a stop sign.

Another place what is considered "dark territory" is the Old Madison Yard, where ESA is on the lower level.
User avatar
Steamboat Willie
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:43 pm
Location: Iron Highway

Re: MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby Jersey_Mike » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:52 pm

They don't have much of a choice. It's an FRA mandate.


They can ignore the FRA and pay the fine which will probably be less than the cost of installing it. I doubt there would be any political will to shut down MNRR and the LIRR on Jan 1 2016 if they don't install PTC even if the FRA had that sort of authority.

The cost of PTC will be its death. Amtrak, NJT, Metra, SEPTA, etc, etc will ALL face similar cost and siliary budgetary meltdowns. The FRA is already issuing waivers to cover several 2-a-day Amtrak routes and more will be in the pipeline, however once the Feds realize that they can't deliver on the 10 billion worth of grants they promiced look for massive industry lobbying to have the so called mandate killed in one way or another. The big railroads will be able to convince the Republicans on the evils of this over regulation while the transit agencies will have the ear of the democratic party on how its blowing a hole in their budgets.

Dutch, I don't know why you see so for this boondoggle. Perhaps you should voulenteer yourself to be laid off to pay for it. Basic cab signals have prevented any major train to train accidents on MN and the LIRR for 40 years, more is not needed. In this thing called the "real world" you can't just get everything you want. You have to make choices about where you spend your money. PTC isn't so nice when it means discarding the 2nd Ave subway or off-peak train services.
Jersey_Mike
 
Posts: 4689
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:39 am
Location: CHARLES aka B&P JCT MP 95.9

Re: MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby DutchRailnut » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:38 pm

Mike I only posted a link, without comments other than title.
As for cost you still have not figured out operating budget vs capital budged , so what about those layoffs ?

You never concider cost if it concerns safety, specialy if a new national standard is to be implemented.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer
User avatar
DutchRailnut
 
Posts: 21200
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: released from Stalag 13

Re: MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby Jersey_Mike » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:17 pm

Mike I only posted a link, without comments other than title.


The word "weasel" implied an editorial position on your part.

As for cost you still have not figured out operating budget vs capital budged , so what about those layoffs ?


Money is money. Bloated MTA capitol budget saps sympathy in Albany to sustain large operating deficits.

You never concider cost if it concerns safety, specialy if a new national standard is to be implemented.


Maybe you should stick to your job operating trains and leave the risk analysis to the professionals because statements like that are extremely ignorant. You always have to consider costs because because we simply do not live in a magical fantacy land where some almighty being showers us with unlimited resources. If you want to save lives blow the 700 million on improving regional healthcare or fixing dangerous highway conditions. I would be willing to bet if one ran the numbers using the money to increase or improve service would save more lives in terms of auto accident deaths than it would prevent in rail accident deaths. Blindly spending money on the safety fad of the day without running the numbers ends up KILLING MORE PEOPLE.

Perhaps you should be pleased to accept fact that you do your job so well you don't need a computer looking over your shoulder.
Jersey_Mike
 
Posts: 4689
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:39 am
Location: CHARLES aka B&P JCT MP 95.9

Re: MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby cruiser939 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:27 pm

Jersey_Mike wrote:
DutchRailnut wrote:Mike I only posted a link, without comments other than title.
The word "weasel" implied an editorial position on your part.

As much as I hate to agree with jersey mike, he's absolutely right. As soon as you included the word weasel in your title, you were conveying your opinions and attempting to influence those of others. Not that there's a problem with that, just own up to it though.
To loosely quote Capt. Jack Aubrey from the movie Master and Commander: "NJT runs a railroad, not a private yacht! WE DO NOT HAVE TIME FOR YOUR DAMNED HOBBIES, SIR!"

Originator of Jeff Smith rules!
Cruiser "Awesome Justice Train Freedom America" 939
User avatar
cruiser939
 
Posts: 4060
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 3:15 pm
Location: Waiting 47 minutes at New Brunswick for my train

Re: MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby Patrick A. » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:47 pm

If the benefit of PTC is only ever so marginally better than the current ATC system, I see no reason to force MNR or the LIRR to implement it. Railroads and lines that are dark that have frequent passenger train operations need signals and a speed enforcement system, however I think the MNRR and LIRR systems should be allowed to be grandfathered in. However, the Waterbury and Danbury branches should be subject to at least adopt the current system.
I have lived to ride on the M8.

Complete Constant Tension on the New Haven Line ETC: Mid-2018
Patrick A.
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:52 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby Jeff Smith » Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:44 pm

I can see both sides of this argument. MNRR already has a superior safety record related to its signal system. As I understand it, ACSES is an overlay on top of ATC. Does it make sense to add it to the NH line? Probably, since that would give Amtrak a single system Boston - NYP (and the M8's will have it). Of course, then maybe the feds/Amtrak should pay for it. It may even marginally improve Amtrak's speeds on that stretch (marginally being the key word here).

It certainly doesn't make sense for the Harlem or Hudson lines, though, especially the Harlem and the Port Morris portion of the Hudson. I don't think M7's have ACSES, which would be a huge cost. I also don't think Amtrak uses ACSES on the Empire line (which runs over the Hudson from Poughkeepsie to Spuyten Duyvil). I'm not sure about south of Penn, but that doesn't affect MNRR anyway (at least, not yet).

So I say split the difference; add it to the NH line, but exempt the other two lines and WOH as well. Why should NY pay for CA's idiocy?
Next stop, Willoughby
~Jeff Smith (fka "Sarge") :: RAILROAD.NET Site Administrator
Jeff Smith
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7444
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:28 am
Location: MP 67.2 Georgia Southern Railway

Re: MTA trying to weasel out of PTC

Postby Patrick A. » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:05 pm

Hear Hear Sarge! Well articulated.
I have lived to ride on the M8.

Complete Constant Tension on the New Haven Line ETC: Mid-2018
Patrick A.
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:52 pm
Location: New York, NY

Next

Return to MTA Metro-North Railroad and CtDOT Passenger Rail

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests