FL9 F-10 Metro-North / CtDOT / Amtrak Discussion

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby ajp » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:09 pm

I understand that the engineer has no side egress on tracks 3 and 4 - at least a P42 has a rear door that cam lead to a passenger car.

This points out that passengers only have egress out of the foward and rear doors of an EMU and the rear door of a Bomb car.

This gets tricky when you have a push/pull sandwitch between two locomomotives. Even with a P32 as mentioned before its hard to imagine civilians
sqeezing by a hot prime mover in emergency conditions.

Can anyone comment what the side egress is in the west side tunnel into PSNY?

Regardless, what was the Amtrak equipment doing in GCT yesterday anyway? A test for the summer?
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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby Amtrak706 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:32 pm

This is probably a dumb question but why do they need a cab on both ends to begin with? Doesn’t GCT have loop tracks?
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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby GirlOnTheTrain » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:39 pm

Why limit them to only using a couple tracks? I was under the impression that the whole nose hatch egress debacle this time around is because they won't guarantee the Amtrak trains will be kept on the middle tracks in the tunnel, which is how they got around the hatch requirement last summer.

RTC would probably prefer to route the trains wherever they have free space, not contain them to the loop tracks if they can help it.

ajp wrote:Regardless, what was the Amtrak equipment doing in GCT yesterday anyway? A test for the summer?


They're doing qualification runs for Amtrak crews.
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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby DutchRailnut » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:52 pm

some talk is about mating the cab car and P32acdm at front of train with consist behind Genny.
problem with that is they will have to go around loop which takes time and yard crew to do. it also blocks a lot of moves while that train backs into its track.
passengers are not allowed to occupy trains on loop tracks except for emergency moves authorized by superintendent of transportation, again account of no egress from train due to extreme close clearances.
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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby hs3730 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:13 am

some talk is about mating the cab car and P32acdm at front of train with consist behind Genny.


If they're going to loop why not just have the cab car at the 'end' of the train and push all times. Added benefit, if a quick turnaround is operationally needed, they can forgo the loop, pull out and use the center tracks.

I'm still hoping the FL9s get in the mix somehow. Though I'd imagine winning the Powerball has a better probability...
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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby Graeme Salt » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:35 am

Some info on Trainorders: https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/ ... ?4,4489676

Suggests FL9s, if used, would be as unpowered cab cars on head end in front of train loco. Passenger emergency egress would be via vestibule connection in rear coach.
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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby Railjunkie » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:52 am

ajp wrote:I understand that the engineer has no side egress on tracks 3 and 4 - at least a P42 has a rear door that cam lead to a passenger car.

This points out that passengers only have egress out of the foward and rear doors of an EMU and the rear door of a Bomb car.

This gets tricky when you have a push/pull sandwitch between two locomomotives. Even with a P32 as mentioned before its hard to imagine civilians
sqeezing by a hot prime mover in emergency conditions.

Can anyone comment what the side egress is in the west side tunnel into PSNY?

Regardless, what was the Amtrak equipment doing in GCT yesterday anyway? A test for the summer?



Are we talking the overbuild or the Empire tunnel? If its the overbuild you can easily exit the train on either side and walk on the access road. There are exits, however I think they are locked from the outside.

Empire has two different colored stripes, red and green if I see red and you see red we walk towards the station green green walk towards the overbuild green red there is an exit just about the middle of the tunnel its self. I may have my colors reversed but its a pretty simple system. There is enough room for folks to walk the entire tunnel in case of emergency. Plus if there is a smoke condition there are fans that will draw the smoke out of the tunnel
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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby Ridgefielder » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:21 pm

Railjunkie wrote:
ajp wrote:I understand that the engineer has no side egress on tracks 3 and 4 - at least a P42 has a rear door that cam lead to a passenger car.

This points out that passengers only have egress out of the foward and rear doors of an EMU and the rear door of a Bomb car.

This gets tricky when you have a push/pull sandwitch between two locomomotives. Even with a P32 as mentioned before its hard to imagine civilians
sqeezing by a hot prime mover in emergency conditions.

Can anyone comment what the side egress is in the west side tunnel into PSNY?

Regardless, what was the Amtrak equipment doing in GCT yesterday anyway? A test for the summer?



Are we talking the overbuild or the Empire tunnel? If its the overbuild you can easily exit the train on either side and walk on the access road. There are exits, however I think they are locked from the outside.

Empire has two different colored stripes, red and green if I see red and you see red we walk towards the station green green walk towards the overbuild green red there is an exit just about the middle of the tunnel its self. I may have my colors reversed but its a pretty simple system. There is enough room for folks to walk the entire tunnel in case of emergency. Plus if there is a smoke condition there are fans that will draw the smoke out of the tunnel

Neither. We're talking about the Park Avenue tunnel that detouring Empire Service trains would use to access Grand Central Terminal. Between around 95th St. (a block or so short of the north portal at 97th) and 59th St. this is the original 4-track "Fourth Avenue Improvement" built by the New York Central between 1872 and 1876. The center two tracks are together in a double-track tunnel that runs roughly under the median of Park Ave. The outside tracks are each in single-track tunnels that run roughly under the north- and south-bound lanes of the Avenue. The clearances in these single-track tunnels are extremely tight since they were designed for 1870's-vintage locomotives; tight enough that anyone in an engine cab would be unable to exit via a side door in an emergency. Hence the need for equipment with a door in the nose.
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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby blockline4180 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:55 pm

Graeme Salt wrote:Some info on Trainorders: https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/ ... ?4,4489676

Suggests FL9s, if used, would be as unpowered cab cars on head end in front of train loco. Passenger emergency egress would be via vestibule connection in rear coach.


Yes, but that might be in doubt now if they can find enough commuter cab cars (MARC, etc) by then.
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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby NaugyRR » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:52 pm

Just out of curiosity, when the P32's and FL9's were still in active service together for both roads, could they be MU'd?

If the FL9's are used as cab cars I'm sure they'll have to be able to talk nicely with the dual-modes, correct?
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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby Allouette » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:53 pm

I don't know about MNRC, But Amtrak FL9s and P32s could be MU'd, though I doubt it happened very often. I saw it on a demo train that Amtrak sent to White River Jct. Vermont for "Railroad Days" around 1995. The train consist leaving WRJ had a P32, an FL9, a "Vermonter" baggage car (remember those?), two brand new Superliners (a transition sleeper and a lounge if I remember right), a Viewliner sleeper, and GMRC's wooden ex-Rutland combine 260 (with unlit oil marker lights) as far as Bellows falls. The FL9 loaded quite a bit faster than the P32.
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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby NH2060 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:04 pm

Here's what I'm not understanding (unless either I'm misreading something or someone improperly explained something): Why would the FL-9 or cab car be placed in front of another P32 unit on the other end of the train? The whole point is for passengers to exit from the front of the tail end of the train so how would putting either vehicle in front of the loco without the nose door going to do any good if they can't even pass through to the rear end of the cab car/FL-9?
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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby Kurt » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:29 pm

The nose escape door is solely for the engineer, and anyone else in the cab. It is not for passengers.
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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby johnpbarlow » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:40 am

Kurt wrote:The nose escape door is solely for the engineer, and anyone else in the cab. It is not for passengers.


Passengers get to use the single door at the rear of the last car of the train, no? Net: one person gets to exit via the locomotive cab while a hundred or more people spread out over several cars get to use the exit at the other end of the train?
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Re: FL9 FL-9 F10 F-10 Status Discussion Operation Dispositio

Postby DutchRailnut » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:13 am

no one is going to walk passengers trough engine room, squeezing by a greasy HEP unit and main engine, up stairs to cab then down ladder into nose, via a 2 x 4 door tripping over brake shoes and out another 3 x 5 door and climb down a coupler.
anyone suggesting such actions should get his/her head examined.
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