Official M2 / M4 / M6 Retirement Thread

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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Official M2 / M4 / M6 Retirement Thread

Postby Clean Cab » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:30 am

Note from Site Admin: Merging in some topics, sorry to hijack original post:

Jeff Smith wrote:Okay, I know I'm jumping the gun JUST A BIT, but with the recent snowstorms, related breakdowns, and (hopefully) imminent introduction of the M-8's, I thought I'd start this thread to track retirements, in- and out-of-service car counts, prioritizing repairs and cannibalizing remaining pairs, etc. I think there is a link to an article in here somewhere else on this as well concerning the fact that MNRR will have to pay for the M-2s to be scrapped vs. selling them for scrap (environmental issues; these ain't Redbirds).

Here's the snow article(s): http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Rail ... 951211.php

On the eve of the winter's third big snowstorm, nearly a quarter of the state's weather-vulnerable M-2 rail car fleet has been knocked out of service by snow-related problems, raising concerns about having enough rolling stock to provide service through the cold months, Metro-North Railroad President Howard Permut said.

...

Some 172 of the 228 M-2 cars serving the MTA's New Haven Line are in running order, fewer than the 186 typically needed to avoid running diesel locomotives.

The state plans to begin phasing out the worn-out M-2 cars gradually as the state's new fleet of M-8 rail cars go into service.


Another M-2 article circa the first snow-storm: http://www.newstimes.com/local/article/ ... 933008.php

Indeed commuters were reminded of the shortcomings of the M-2 rail cars when service was suspended because of the recent blizzard and about 30 cars had to be sidelined. Even a moderate snowfall can knock out or severely delay New Haven Line service.

"When the snow is of the fine, granular variety, basically what happens is that the flakes get sucked into the electronics, it melts and freezes, and then you have a block of ice where you used to have a transformer," said Jim Cameron, chairman of the Connecticut Metro-North Commuters Council. "Even on a good day, 10 or 15 percent of the fleet is in the shop."


Here's the original scrap thread: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=77380&hilit=scrap

Here's the original CT Post article on scrapping from that thread: http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Next ... 866796.php

With the first of the state's new Kawasaki M-8 rail cars expected in service within weeks, Metro-North Railroad and state transportation officials will soon choose a company to gradually scrap the state's aged fleet of 235 M-2 cars, officials said.

Metro-North plans to begin retiring the cars this winter, beginning with 89 that were not revamped as part of a $75 million Critical Systems Replacement program begun in 2004 to keep cars running past their expected 30- to 35-year life span, spokeswoman Marjorie Anders said. The first General Electric-built M-2s were delivered in 1973.

The pending contract will also include disposal of more than 250 worn out New York City subway cars, Anders said.

"We're in the process of reviewing proposals from companies interested in scrapping the old cars," she said. "We expect to award the contract in January and begin scrapping M-2 cars early next year."



Here's the most current list of MUs that are stored in the "Bone Yard" tracks (#s 41 to 45) in New Haven. Most of these cars are out of service due to structural or fire damage. Some have been out of service for 5 years now.

M2s: 8450, 8808, 8529, 8748, 8426, 8523, 8535

M4s: 8911, 8902, 8967

M6s: 9026, 9077, 9027

Plus about 12 VRE coaches including all three cab control cars.
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Postby emfinite » Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:17 pm

Is there any way to access that area for photographs? Or at least from a distance with a telephoto lens?

Also, what is currently being stored at the Boneyards in Tarrytown, Croton East yard and Croton freight yard?

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Postby checkthedoorlight » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:50 pm

Isn't track 41 New Haven's loop track? Why would the yard put the loop out of service in order to store dead trains?
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Postby DutchRailnut » Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:40 am

no 41 is not loop track, 41-45 are inside the loop just west of old freight building.
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Postby Stephen B. Carey » Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:10 pm

Is the boneyard that yard that they just re-did. If you're going to nyc its on your left, correct?? I remember seeing E-60's there when I was a kid, and F40's right when they were being retired and were working Shore Line East and some work trains.
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Postby Clean Cab » Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:20 pm

The "Bone Yard" is a relatively new yard that was built during the New Haven Terminal rebuild project. It's unique due it's use of telephone poles holding up the catenary wire. You really can't see it from the main tracks or the station. It is located along side the new coach yard that Amtrak used to use as their "Motor Storage" tracks.
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Postby Bill West » Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:48 am

As the M2s are A and B members of a pair I take it we have one more okay half sitting around the shop somewhere. The M4 and M6s each fit a triplet set (are all 3 in each set defective?). The M2 could be used as a maintenance stand in for cars in the active fleet but of course it can’t otherwise be put out on the road. This list also means there are mixed car numbers and MTA/CDOT decals in some active pairs, interesting spotting item.

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Postby Clean Cab » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:17 am

There are about 6 mis matched pairs currently running around. This is due to one car of a marrierd pair developing problems or severe damage that requires this one car to be cut out and shopped until repaired. By the time it is repaired, it may not be possible to reconnect it with its original mate.

There will always be an odd nunber of M2s because 3 of the 244 have been scrapped. The missing cars are 8840, 8517 & 8427. The surviving cars of the first two listed run together as 8841/8516. The 8426 as mentioned above sits in the Bone Yard awaiting its chance to once again run.

The CSR program in New Haven is supposed to get all sidelined M2s back in service eventually.

There are even mis matched triplets running around. One M4 triplet has an M6 "D" car (8916/9075/8917) and there is a mis matched M6 triplet as well who's numbers I can't think of right now.
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Postby Bill West » Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:29 am

CapeCod, thanks for the leads. The FRA Safety Office site says 8840 and 8517 met their end at Mt Vernon in April 1988, picture in Trains Jul’88. Is the remarriage of their widows a funeral director’s variation on the shotgun/forced wedding?..Ghoulish. 8427 showed smoke arriving at Bridgeport yard in Jan 1999 but the damage was only listed as $250k. As Railpictures has a 2006 shot with its number in the caption has it maybe been repaired just now and returned to service?

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Postby Clean Cab » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:56 am

M2 #8427 sits in Stamford yard along side the Heavy Repair Shop stripped down to it's frame. It will not be put back in service. It is awaiting its date with the scrapper's torch. Yes, the damage from the fire caused only $250,000 worth of damage, but the fire ruined the frame and cable troughs under the car. It was immediately condemned after the fire.
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Postby Bill West » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:02 am

It's hard to ID the cars in photos so I couldn't be sure the caption was right. Thanks for the informative answer.
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Official M2 / M4 / M6 retirement thread

Postby Jeff Smith » Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:34 pm

Merging in some threads:

Jeff Smith wrote:Okay, I know I'm jumping the gun JUST A BIT, but with the recent snowstorms, related breakdowns, and (hopefully) imminent introduction of the M-8's, I thought I'd start this thread to track retirements, in- and out-of-service car counts, prioritizing repairs and cannibalizing remaining pairs, etc. I think there is a link to an article in here somewhere else on this as well concerning the fact that MNRR will have to pay for the M-2s to be scrapped vs. selling them for scrap (environmental issues; these ain't Redbirds).

Here's the snow article(s): http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Rail ... 951211.php

On the eve of the winter's third big snowstorm, nearly a quarter of the state's weather-vulnerable M-2 rail car fleet has been knocked out of service by snow-related problems, raising concerns about having enough rolling stock to provide service through the cold months, Metro-North Railroad President Howard Permut said.

...

Some 172 of the 228 M-2 cars serving the MTA's New Haven Line are in running order, fewer than the 186 typically needed to avoid running diesel locomotives.

The state plans to begin phasing out the worn-out M-2 cars gradually as the state's new fleet of M-8 rail cars go into service.


Another M-2 article circa the first snow-storm: http://www.newstimes.com/local/article/ ... 933008.php

Indeed commuters were reminded of the shortcomings of the M-2 rail cars when service was suspended because of the recent blizzard and about 30 cars had to be sidelined. Even a moderate snowfall can knock out or severely delay New Haven Line service.

"When the snow is of the fine, granular variety, basically what happens is that the flakes get sucked into the electronics, it melts and freezes, and then you have a block of ice where you used to have a transformer," said Jim Cameron, chairman of the Connecticut Metro-North Commuters Council. "Even on a good day, 10 or 15 percent of the fleet is in the shop."


Here's the original scrap thread: viewtopic.php?f=67&t=77380&hilit=scrap

Here's the original CT Post article on scrapping from that thread: http://www.ctpost.com/news/article/Next ... 866796.php

With the first of the state's new Kawasaki M-8 rail cars expected in service within weeks, Metro-North Railroad and state transportation officials will soon choose a company to gradually scrap the state's aged fleet of 235 M-2 cars, officials said.

Metro-North plans to begin retiring the cars this winter, beginning with 89 that were not revamped as part of a $75 million Critical Systems Replacement program begun in 2004 to keep cars running past their expected 30- to 35-year life span, spokeswoman Marjorie Anders said. The first General Electric-built M-2s were delivered in 1973.

The pending contract will also include disposal of more than 250 worn out New York City subway cars, Anders said.

"We're in the process of reviewing proposals from companies interested in scrapping the old cars," she said. "We expect to award the contract in January and begin scrapping M-2 cars early next year."



Any specific info on what they'll do with the M-2's? With the CSR rebuilds, and potential system expansions, will they keep some? Even without system expansion, they need to expand the fleet.

Could they be de-electrified for push-pull service? If they electrify Danbury, they could be used there, or as New Canaan shuttles. From what I understand, they can't be used on SLE due to voltage difference. I don't believe there's been any proposal to electrify NHHS line.

I read somewhere else here that the M-1's (those not held in reserve for Yankee Stadium) were going to OH. What for? Scrap? Will this happen with the M-2's?
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Re: M-2 Retirements (Post M-8 delivery)

Postby RearOfSignal » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:00 pm

Sarge wrote:I read somewhere else here that the M-1's (those not held in reserve for Yankee Stadium) were going to OH. What for? Scrap? Will this happen with the M-2's?


The M-1s were going to Ohio for the railroad version of demolition derby. :wink: (Crash Testing) There was a link to a video somewhere on here before of the testing.
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Postby Jeff Smith » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:23 pm

I hope they got good film - it sounds like something out of the Addams Family, where Gomez has that high speed model train set with the spectacular crashes. :-D
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Postby DutchRailnut » Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:49 pm

Only 4 M1a's went to Pueblo Colorado for testing all other cars went to Ohio for scrapping.
As for M2 predictions nobody can lookinto future and sofar there are no plans.
Can they be made into push pull cars no they would need structural rebuilt for that and cost would be prohibitive.
Danbury electrification ?? not in your or my lifetime.
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