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Erie-Lackawanna wrote:PullmanCo wrote:It can be argued that "ridership" back then was directly related to service levels.
It could be, but that would be a grossly incomplete argument. The population of Orange County has grown explosively in the past 15-20 years, and it is that growth that is largely responsible for the level of service that is operated on the Port Jervis Line.
Obviously, service levels and ridership are the chicken and the egg of commuter rail service planning. Without one, you don't get the other. But you need both - preferably each growing alongside the other - in order for the service to sustain itself.
Jim
PullmanCo wrote:Orange County NY and Burlington County NJ currently have similar population densities.
Erie-Lackawanna wrote:PullmanCo wrote:Orange County NY and Burlington County NJ currently have similar population densities.
And that's where the similarity ends. The demographics are different, and the market is vastly different: the trip length from the (time-based) half-way point on the RiverLine to Center City Philadelphia is roughly 45 minutes. The trip length from the (time-based) half-way point in Orange County to midtown Manhattan is an hour longer. The kind of people making that commute are very different. I can't compare demographical information of the Metro-North Port Jervis Line commuter market to the RiverLine commuter market, but anecdotally, I'm sure they're very different. Finally, light rail service is very different from heavy rail commuter service. I'm sorry, but you just can't compare the two, especially when the point of comparing them is to spend millions of dollars to reactivate a rail line that nobody is clamoring to reactivate
And let's never forget the NIMBY factor: I'm sure the residents of Goshen and Chester who have forgotten what it's like to have trains running in their back yards - or those that never experienced it - would balk at the idea
Erie-Lackawanna wrote:Port Jervis wrote:Didn't the people in Chester and Goshen put up any fight to keep the old line intact? These two towns don't have any nearby stations on the Graham line.
Nothing organized or loud enough to be heard. Were they unhappy? yes. But it wasn't enough to stop the switch.
In 1984 ridership from Orange County was 1/10th what it is today. The number of riders who would have complained just couldn't have the numbers needed to be heard.
Jim
Erie-Lackawanna wrote:PullmanCo wrote:Orange County NY and Burlington County NJ currently have similar population densities.
And that's where the similarity ends. The demographics are different, and the market is vastly different: the trip length from the (time-based) half-way point on the RiverLine to Center City Philadelphia is roughly 45 minutes. The trip length from the (time-based) half-way point in Orange County to midtown Manhattan is an hour longer. The kind of people making that commute are very different. I can't compare demographical information of the Metro-North Port Jervis Line commuter market to the RiverLine commuter market, but anecdotally, I'm sure they're very different. Finally, light rail service is very different from heavy rail commuter service. I'm sorry, but you just can't compare the two, especially when the point of comparing them is to spend millions of dollars to reactivate a rail line that nobody is clamoring to reactivate.
And let's never forget the NIMBY factor: I'm sure the residents of Goshen and Chester who have forgotten what it's like to have trains running in their back yards - or those that never experienced it - would balk at the idea.
Jim
Sarge wrote:I would bet Westchester (White Plains, Platinum Mile (West. Av.), Tarrytown are huge destinations for Orange and Rockland. That's why I don't understand the talk of commuter rail proposed for the TZB to connect to the North-South lines into NY. If you want increased service on the PJ, that's where it's at IMHO. I think MNRR could get out of the Bergen/Main service (using a transfer to NJT at Suffern, which they would need to continue serving) if this were to happen.
Fascinating stuff, and as usual, thanks to Jim, whose alias is indeed deserved.
Erie-Lackawanna wrote:
Service via the Graham Line, which had begun accidentally for one day on April 4, 1983, was formally and permanently inaugurated effective April 18, 1983. Note the Middletown shuttle service continued to turn at Middletown, but the October 30, 1983 timetable has the runs extended to Port Jervis, and the number of trains almost doubled, to 9 trains each way on weekdays, and three each way on Saturdays.
Jim
Harriman Station wrote:It would be a very big mistake for Metro-North to get out of Bergen/Main service. A transfer at Suffern would not suffice for the thousands of people commuting to the NYC area. While many Orange/Rockland county commuters are going to Westchester county, many others are going to NYC
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