Port Jervis Line - Graham Line changeover

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Re: 1982 Metro-North Port Jervis schedule

Postby sullivan1985 » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:33 pm

R36 Combine Coach wrote:At this time (1982), service was still under Conrail.


But if you read the schedule Otto posted above, it clearly say NJ TRANSIT and the year states 1982.
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Re: 1982 Metro-North Port Jervis schedule

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:38 pm

They were labeled "NJ Transit" trains as early as 1980-81, but service was technically Conrail until 1/1/83.
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Re: 1982 Metro-North Port Jervis schedule

Postby firthorfifth06 » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:56 pm

I've seen NJT Timetables from 81-82.

The '81 timetables still mention that conrail operates the trains, however, this is no longer the case in '82. I refer you to oldtrainschedules.com and their NJT collection
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Re: 1982 Metro-North Port Jervis schedule

Postby TDowling » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:27 pm

Anyone know when Metro-North issued their first timetable for Port Jervis Line service?


The first schedule for the "new" service was posted in the other thread.

As Erie said, a freight train derailed in Goshen on Easter Sunday the 3rd 1983. I know there are photos out there of this "accidental" wreck :wink: , but I forgot where they are.
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Re: 1982 Metro-North Port Jervis schedule

Postby Otto Vondrak » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:51 pm

Interesting! Now I have to dig up my archive and find the NJDOT/NJT timetable from this period...
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Re: 1982 Metro-North Port Jervis schedule

Postby Erie-Lackawanna » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:23 am

Otto Vondrak wrote:This is when the Erie Main Line was still in service, and would remain in service until 1984.

I thought we hashed this one out already, and only 2 months ago, at that.

Service on the Main Line was permanently discontinued effective April 18, 1983.

:-)

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Re: 1982 Metro-North Port Jervis schedule

Postby Port Jervis » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:21 am

firthorfifth06 wrote:I've seen NJT Timetables from 81-82.

The '81 timetables still mention that conrail operates the trains, however, this is no longer the case in '82. I refer you to oldtrainschedules.com and their NJT collection


That may only indicate that the timetable for state takeover of Conrail-provided commuter rail service was already known. I'm sure there was a significant time period between the agreement of state takeover and the official date of said takeover.

It may also indicate that the state provided both the rolling stock and prepared the timetables for such service. I believe SLE does the same, even if Amtrak operates their trains.
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Re: 1982 Metro-North Port Jervis schedule

Postby Port Jervis » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:23 am

Otto Vondrak wrote:From the collection of Thomas Dowling...


Very interesting. I didn't realize that there was a division between New York and New Jersey service, with only a couple of through trains. And even with the old alignment and bad track, service to/from Suffern was faster then than today (unless their schedules weren't "padded" as they are today).

Thanks for posting this.
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Re: 1982 Metro-North Port Jervis schedule

Postby Erie-Lackawanna » Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:23 pm

Port Jervis wrote:Very interesting. I didn't realize that there was a division between New York and New Jersey service, with only a couple of through trains. And even with the old alignment and bad track, service to/from Suffern was faster then than today (unless their schedules weren't "padded" as they are today).


Although MTA took over financial responsibility for the Port Jervis service in 1974, the first time I saw anything that so clearly attributed the Port Jervis service to MTA was that very piece of paper, back in 1982. Prior to that it may have been a footnote on the timetable or something. Before those shuttle started, there were only three round-trips daily that ran west of Suffern, and one on Saturday. There was no Main/Bergen/Port Jervis service on Sunday until Metro-North re-established it in...1985? Somewhere around there.

The current route is about 8 miles longer than the original Erie Main Line. Although speeds are higher, travel time was and is slightly longer via the Graham Line. As with most passenger train service these days, there's a bit of extra pad that wasn't there in 1982.

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Re: 1982 Metro-North Port Jervis schedule

Postby TDowling » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:30 pm

Not only was shuttle service instituted, one of the through trains from Hoboken, which had previously originated/terminated in Monroe, was extended to Middletown!

Clearly, in the very brief period between January 1 and April 18, passenger service on the Main Line must have been entirely the responsibility of Metro-North Commuter Railroad, not Conrail or a council.

The VERY last Main Line train must have been Saturday, April 16, 1983. The tracks were removed sometime in November 1984.
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You know what's really cool?

Postby Idiot Railfan » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:34 pm

Forget, for a minute, about what entity ran what, and let's get back the cool part of Otto's post...

Did anyone notice anything strange about eastbound train No. 60 out of Middletown?

It left Middletown and made no stops through to Tuxedo. Sounds like an express, but it took 2 hours and 16 minutes, while a train making all the stops made the trip between those stations in about 40-45 minutes. How can this be you ask? Early NJT schedule padding?

For about a year, that eastbound train (a pair of ex-NYC RDCs) went west out of Middletown, then switched onto the west end of the then-passenger-station-free Graham Line and then went east, thereby avoiding several rush-hour westbounds using the original and single-track ex-Erie Main Line. The eastbound 60 would race east on the Graham Line then sit for up to an hour at Newburgh Junction, the east end of the Graham Line where the sprawling relocated Harriman station now exists.

Rode that train more than a few times. Lot of fun. The sooner 60 got to Newburgh Jct. the longer the crew got to nap.

So passenger trains were actually running on the Graham Line more than a year before the official switchover.

One of those things that at the time looked like progress was wiping out what I was familiar with, but now I wish I could relive!
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that's interesting

Postby TDowling » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:17 pm

That's interesting! I bet that would have been fun to do on a winter evening, chugging down the line. Apparently, the Main Line was double-track, but one of the tracks was put out of service, which I guess prevented 60 from using it.
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Re: You know what's really cool?

Postby nick11a » Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:40 am

Idiot Railfan wrote:Forget, for a minute, about what entity ran what, and let's get back the cool part of Otto's post...

Did anyone notice anything strange about eastbound train No. 60 out of Middletown?

It left Middletown and made no stops through to Tuxedo. Sounds like an express, but it took 2 hours and 16 minutes, while a train making all the stops made the trip between those stations in about 40-45 minutes. How can this be you ask? Early NJT schedule padding?

For about a year, that eastbound train (a pair of ex-NYC RDCs) went west out of Middletown, then switched onto the west end of the then-passenger-station-free Graham Line and then went east, thereby avoiding several rush-hour westbounds using the original and single-track ex-Erie Main Line. The eastbound 60 would race east on the Graham Line then sit for up to an hour at Newburgh Junction, the east end of the Graham Line where the sprawling relocated Harriman station now exists.

Rode that train more than a few times. Lot of fun. The sooner 60 got to Newburgh Jct. the longer the crew got to nap.

So passenger trains were actually running on the Graham Line more than a year before the official switchover.

One of those things that at the time looked like progress was wiping out what I was familiar with, but now I wish I could relive!


You're right, that is really cool. Great info IR and nice story!
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Original Southern Tier rail overpass

Postby TDowling » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:06 pm

An interesting note: If you drive through the hamlet of Howells, on New Vernon Road you will pass between what were once the foundations of a rail overpass of the original Southern Tier Line, which diverted from the "new" Port Jervis Line at Howells Junction, passed through Otisville (not beneath it), and rejoined the line at Guymard Junction. The overpass itself is no longer there, but the concrete foundations are in surprisingly good shape, so much so that anyone could tell this was a rail bridge. In all likelihood Howells station was located here, but judging from satellite pictures it appears to be gone.
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Re: Original Erie Main in Orange County NY (Port Jervis Line)

Postby sullivan1985 » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:42 am

henry6 wrote:
Erie-Lackawanna wrote:The current plan for TZB service is to operate some runs to GCT via the TZB, and others to Hoboken/PSNY via ARC.

Jim


I did not think there actually is a "current plan" but only rhetoric and words by some, that the TZB idea is the least likely of any scenerio for rail, at least for the time being.


I would think Jim is MUCH more qualified to say there is or isn't a plan than you. If anybody knows about any plans Metro-North is cooking up, I would be him.
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