WoH Port Jervis Line Service, Studies, Work, Status

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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SecaucusJunction
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Post by SecaucusJunction » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:51 pm

Actually two of the three biggest stops on the line are west of the viaduct. Only Harriman is east. Still doesn't mean it will ever be double tracked. NJT has a single track bridge on the main line with far more trains on the route and they work through just fine.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

pnaw10
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Post by pnaw10 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:02 pm

EuroStar wrote:
SecaucusJunction wrote:As far as I know, the midpoint yard was included in the funding for MTA 2015-2019 capital projects. As far as location, I've heard of locations from Harriman to Middletown.
You are right. It was in there, but I am still very puzzled why. It is not as if they need to run another 4-6 daily round trips -- the demand is not there. I also cannot imagine that cutting some of the existing trips short and not sending them to Port Jervis saves operationally enough money to justify the cost of yard. All that might change with Gateway, but that is 20 years away, so why do this now?
Is it possible that MTA may have added it to the plan at the request or urging of NJTransit? I am not as familiar with the WOH lines but just wondering if maybe there could be some interstate negotiating/politics at play... "you agree to do this, and we'll agree to do that" -- steps that both agencies would need to take to reach some long-term common goal. Since NJT runs the line for MNR, it's my guess that MNR wouldn't bother building a yard unless NJT requested it, and had a good reason to back-up that request.

Has anyone looked to see if NJT has any major projects in the works that could benefit MNR's WOH service?
.

EuroStar
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Post by EuroStar » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:58 am

SecaucusJunction wrote:NJT has a single track bridge on the main line with far more trains on the route and they work through just fine.
That would be the bridge over the Hackensack River. It is in a good shape. As long as they paint it and do minor preventive maintenance when needed it will last at least another 200 years. It is a movable bridge(read "expensive"), so do not expect to see it replaced in your lifetime unless a boat or a train wrecks it badly.
pnaw10 wrote:Is it possible that MTA may have added it to the plan at the request or urging of NJTransit? I am not as familiar with the WOH lines but just wondering if maybe there could be some interstate negotiating/politics at play... "you agree to do this, and we'll agree to do that" -- steps that both agencies would need to take to reach some long-term common goal. Since NJT runs the line for MNR, it's my guess that MNR wouldn't bother building a yard unless NJT requested it, and had a good reason to back-up that request.

Has anyone looked to see if NJT has any major projects in the works that could benefit MNR's WOH service?
The yard is in the capital plan because Metro-North wants it, not because NJT cares or wants to provide better service. To some extent it is a political payback so that Orange County complains less about the taxes they pay to the MTA.

There are no projects in NJT land that will improve WOH service in the foreseeable future. They cannot even build a parking lot for the Westmont Station after the developer paid for the station itself(mostly, once again it is all political football who covers how much of the costs). So the station is currently closed and inaccessible. That by itself is quite pathetic - they have a station for which they are at the very least paying for electricity to light it up and yet it will be at least another year before they get a single dollar of revenue from it(I hope I am wrong and it is sooner than that).

The only viable project is the Secaucus Loop, but that is in 20 years at best and that would be paid mostly by outside money: the Feds, the Port Authority, maybe the state will chip in some. Other than that NJT is busy spending its capital money on operations. It has been more than 5 years since they started allocating money in the capital budget for high level platforms at Lyndhurst (and Perth Amboy) - there is not a single shovel in the ground yet. I suspect the major reason is that the money was spent on other items, most likely operations as Christie reduced significantly the funds for NJT from the budget.

On average you should probably expect the NJT portion of the tracks for WOH service to deteriorate as deferred track maintenance leads to speed restrictions.

CentralValleyRail
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Post by CentralValleyRail » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:40 pm

https://pedestrianobservations.files.wo ... ership.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Haven't found anything more dated...

While Sailsbury Mills is technically West of the Viaduct you don't have to double track for one station beyond that. Run your trains out of CB Hall and you have 10 minutes before you hit double tracking after Moodna. Can't see a real issue with that. It's not like they will be running service in both directions every 20 minutes... Look at Pascack Valley Line there are gaps that wide in their sidings. Hackensack to Pearl River comes to mind.

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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Post by Jeff Smith » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:39 am

http://www.recordonline.com/article/201 ... /160329376" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metro-North names potential spots for midpoint yard

STEWART AIRPORT – Metro-North Railroad has identified three potential locations for the midpoint yard and passing sidings that it wants to build to support more frequent service on the Port Jervis line’s single track.

Speaking to the Stewart Airport Commission Tuesday, Elisa Van der Linde, assistant director of long-range planning at Metro-North, said the locations are in the general vicinity of the railroad’s stations in Harriman, Salisbury Mills and Campbell Hall.

The number of sidings will depend on which site is chosen to augment train storage at the Port Jervis and Hoboken yards – 95 miles apart – but any of the combinations will allow the bi-directional travel and shorter turn-around times necessary to advance Metro-North’s service goals.

Bill Wheeler, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s director of planning, and Van der Linde told the commission that the railroad hasn’t abandoned its effort to identify and preserve a possible route for a spur between the airport and the Port Jervis line, and has only refocused priorities in the west-of-Hudson access study that it began in 2008.
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NH2060
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Post by NH2060 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:47 am

Nice to see they're not even remotely close to giving up on the PJ Line in spite of the lower post-Irene ridership.

But forget about the yard, what about the mention of the prospect of replacing the Moodna Viaduct with a new bridge? That would really be something ;-)

SecaucusJunction
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Post by SecaucusJunction » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:00 pm

Ridership has grown again on the line. Last year was very close to a record year (right behind 2008) on the line. The new midday train will probably set the record in 2016.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

EuroStar
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Post by EuroStar » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:32 am

Ridership is up 2% for the 2015 year vs. 2014 (December 2015 was down though, cheap gas?). You can find the numbers and a lot of other fascinating information http://web.mta.info/mta/news/books/pdf/ ... R_LIRR.pdf. With the cheap gas I would not bet on the ridership beating the 2008 record this year though. Maybe in another 2-3 years.

Not having great understanding of the operations, I would venture to say that Harriman seems too far south for the yard. There are no trains that currently terminate there, nor are there likely to be any such trains in the future given where the ridership is. To me the other two seems somewhat better located and probably more useful for mid-line turns. Given the title of this thread one wonders where the site close to Campbell Hall is...

As for the viaducts, I do not expect to see them replaced during our lifetime as long as they perform the necessary maintenance to keep them from rusting away -- the traffic is light enough that the wear and tear on them is minimal.

TDowling
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Re: Weekend stops on Port Jervis Line

Post by TDowling » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:16 am

Looks like Albany has approved money for a reconfiguration of exit 131 in harriman, paving the way for a possible stop at Woodbury common which hopefully won't adversely affect traffic in the area.

TDowling
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Post by TDowling » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:32 am

Eurostar wrote: given the title of this thread one wonders where the site close to Campbell Hall is?

I was referring to the ns yard a little west of the station.

SecaucusJunction
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Post by SecaucusJunction » Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:44 am

That is an active freight yard operated by M&NJ/East Penn. An MTA yard would have to be built in another location. Sounds like the new service will miss Middletown though... A big station on the line.

I believe at one time, there was talk about building a short extension from Salisbury Mills to Newburgh and having a yard there. The idea made a lot of sense but I'm sure was cost prohibitive.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

DanD3815
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Re: Weekend stops on Port Jervis Line

Post by DanD3815 » Sun Apr 10, 2016 9:57 pm

I've always said it's crazy that they already don't have a weekend stop at the Woodbury commons, especially now with all the new additions they've added to it. It's guaranteed revenue.

njt/mnrrbuff
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Re: Weekend stops on Port Jervis Line

Post by njt/mnrrbuff » Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:39 pm

Don't count on a stop at Woodbury Commons anytime soon. First, Harriman Station is close enough to the outlet. Next, there is plenty of Coach USA Bus Service to the mall. In fact, in general, the bus is the best mode of public transportation to take to there. There is a pair of trains that has a shuttle meet them at Harriman and take shoppers to Woodbury Commons but unless if you are going to spend a very long day at the mall, then it's not worth it. There are plenty of cabs that run to the Harriman train station.

DanD3815
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Re: Weekend stops on Port Jervis Line

Post by DanD3815 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:27 pm

So you're gonna have cabs for all the individuals that come up for the commons? When larger amounts of people would come in by train? They have busses that leave NYC specifically for the commons, if you had a direct train to the commons from the city either via a Secaucus transfer or eventually one seat via Secaucus loop, there would most definitely be large groups taking advantage of that. Plus, the people that make the trip up already via bus or whatever generally DO spend a big chunk of the day there, not just an hour and leave, something that will be even more easier for people to do with all the new amenities they're putting in there. No to mention it could even be used by commons employees as well. May be just me, but I think people would much rather a direct train there rather than sitting in a bus in weekend traffic on 87. Again this would only be a weekend stop, not a regular weekday stop. Orange County is poised for so much growth and potential, especially the Harriman area. So to say it wouldn't be worth it isn't really a correct statement.

CentralValleyRail
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Re: Weekend stops on Port Jervis Line

Post by CentralValleyRail » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:29 pm

njt/mnrrbuff wrote:Don't count on a stop at Woodbury Commons anytime soon. First, Harriman Station is close enough to the outlet. Next, there is plenty of Coach USA Bus Service to the mall. In fact, in general, the bus is the best mode of public transportation to take to there. There is a pair of trains that has a shuttle meet them at Harriman and take shoppers to Woodbury Commons but unless if you are going to spend a very long day at the mall, then it's not worth it. There are plenty of cabs that run to the Harriman train station.
Do you think the idiots go there to save $20 are going to spend $10 each way on a cab ride. The train fare makes sense since it's $15 cheaper than the bus but blowing that on a cab completely depletes the idea. The shuttle needs to meet more than 1 train in each directions for starters.

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