Pictures from this Afternoon in Croton Harmon 11/7/09

[Otto Vondrak]

What are you trying to say then? That every photographer get's harassed because of the MTA's policy? Or that the policy is flawed? Or, that the MTA uses this policy meant to prevent security threats to unfairly harass railfan photographers instead?

Yes.

But when one person says that railroad employees are instructed to notify someone or say something if something seems out of ordinary it's called harassment. No, it's called being alert.

Alert is not wasting the resources of the police department.

What to know something, most of the bad stories of railfan photog's being harassed I hear come from railbuff employees(some who post on this forum) whose railbuff friends get in trouble for doing stupid things while shooting. Things perhaps that puts they're own safety in jeopardy.

I wholeheartedly agree there.

Also, the road in question is over MTA property so to imply that the MTA or the MTAPD has no right to question someone in this location is incorrect. The MTAPD is fully empowered under NYS law. http://www.mta.info/mta/police/rules_mnr.html

Quite familiar with concurrent jurisdiction. Never claimed to negate MTA, Croton, State, County, Park, or Mall Cop authority.

BTW, the person I mentioned before taking pictures in my face which actually happened the same day that the OP's photos were taken. I told him I didn't want him to take my picture, as he put his camera in my face without asking. But he did go taking pictures of the train(without me in the shot) anyway. Which I don't mind at all. He then went by the cab and took pictures,

Sounds like you had a rude and somewhat ignorant person in your presence. Sounds like this person did not understand that you asked NOT to be in his photo, and I don't know what authority he assumed to enter the locomotive cab, but that's completely uncalled for and certainly calls for reprimand (if not a summons).

-otto-

[DutchRailnut]

sounds like buzzer boy ??

[Noel Weaver]

There are two sides to every story and I think that is the case here too. I have been on both sides from time to time so I think I can speak here with some truth.
SOME but not all railfans have an attitude and it is not a good one. Last Sunday I stopped over at Folkston, Georgia on my trip north, it is a nice reasonable ride the first day out
and it is a reasonable distance from Raleigh, NC which is my next stopping point. Of course I took multiple runs to the platform to watch trains pass by, it is a refreshing break
after driving for several hours. There were two guys there with cameras, not uncommon at Folkston, and I did not have much to do with either of them until the northbound Auto
Train showed up a little before 7:00 PM that evening. There is a very low rail barrier maybe 30-50 feet back from the tracks and there are signs from the city of Folkston
requesting that train watchers or photographers stay behind that barrier as CSX owns the property between that barrier and the tracks. In my opinion it is a very reasonable
request as good pictures can be had without crossing that barrier in the first place. One of the two guys crossed the barrier and got right in the face of the Auto Train to snap a
flash picture. After doing so a local appeared and told him that he should not be where he was in a decent way and the guy went "nuts" in a long rant. His rights were being
interfered with, his pleasure was destroyed and more. After the guy left he came up to me to carry on some more and I not only backed the guy up but also told him that if I had
been the engineer on the Auto Train I would request that the police be sent in to remove him so he got good and mad at me too and carried on some more.
People like this who act like this give train lovers and fans a bad name everywhere and those of us who follow the rules sometimes encounter problems as a result of a nut case
like this. The city of Folkston has a very good relationship with CSX and I for one want that to continue.
While I do not get involved in such an issue at Folkston I will state right here that in Florida East Coast territory if I see a fan doing something stupid or trespassing on company
property, I will make a contact with the railroad and I know who to call and how to reach them to inform them of such a situation. I would speak to the individual first but I would
not expect cooperation, if somebody has a bad attitude, they will not cooperate and I will just let the police handle the situation. The FEC has a full time officer on the property
in Fort Lauderdale so I don't think it would take long for the situation to be corrected. In FEC territory the fans have a pretty darn good relationship with the railroad and I for one
and the rest too will not let some moron ruin it for us who play by the rules.
Speaking only for myself, I have little or no interest in going on Metro-North property other than to board a train, probably Amtrak, for a ride someplace. Taking pictures of this
railroad do not really interest me and I have been on practically all of their property in years past and that is good enough for me. I don't take many pictures anymore and never did
take too many anyway.
Reasonable conduct by employees and especailly by fans should defuse any potential problems. Occasionally an unreasonable employee will stand out, I remember in particular an
engine house foreman at Sunnyside Yard, a trainmaster at New London, Connecticut stand out in particular and maybe a couple more but some obnoxious fans have stood out even
more than the foreman or the trainmaster did.
Let's all be cool and pleasant to one another.
Noel Weaver

[Darien Red Sox]

Last year at the open house there were one or two rail fans who decided to hog an FL9 to take photos of and would not let anyone else within 20ft of it until they were told by a Metro North official to stop hogging it.

[Jeff Smith]

Major non-sequiter alert. I was NOT at the Open House, and no one asked me to stop taking pictures there.

[Tommy Meehan]

So when last Saturday some dufus with a camera comes 8 feet from my face and sticks a camera in it and starts snapping and tells me how to pose and where to stand and then walks into the cab to take pictures with no permission I should just keep shut cause it's his constitutional right to harass me right and sit in the train cab?

I should probably keep my fingers off the keyboard but I gotta chime in-

RearOfSignal if you seriously let some "dufus" do all that then you have a problem.

What are you going to do if someone gets on the train and claims they're a wallet inspector?

[RearOfSignal]

I should probably keep my fingers off the keyboard but I gotta chime in-

RearOfSignal if you seriously let some "dufus" do all that then you have a problem.

Do what? He never entered the cab, but would have if we didn't stop him. Since he asked if he could but was told he could not. He never actually entered anywhere he shouldn't have been since we were standing right there. The point I was making in my first post was that some might consider it harassment if he did go where he wasn't supposed to and was told to remove himself either on his own accord or by police escort. As I later elaborated, the guy probably realized he was becoming an irritant so he made a courteous gesture afterward not because he was intent on causing a problem but just a little over enthused. So what would my problem be?

What are you going to do if someone gets on the train and claims they're a wallet inspector?

If a passenger wants to let someone look into their wallet that's on them. I can't prevent stupid things from happening.

[Tommy Meehan]

If some doofus stuck a camera in my face and started telling me how to pose....

You'd probably be reading about me in the next day's Daily News.

[Jeff Smith]

Hey, these guys have a tough enough job without being second-guessed. Maybe some overreact sometimes; it doesn't sound so in this case. Not only are they trying to keep the railroad safe, they're trying to keep people safe from themselves, and also trying in today's economy to keep their jobs. That's a delicate balance, and a fine line, to mention a few metaphors.

This all just sounds like people talking past each other to make a point.

[Darien Red Sox]

There was a time, not that long ago, when people could walk right into the yard and management would not mind, if fact crews would even take time to show people around and show them what they did without getting yelled at by management.

[Terminal Proceed]

OK everyone - DEEP BREATH IN - HOLD IT - NOW EXHALE. Good. I think the point has been made here from both sides of the fence. There are some retard railfans out there as well as overzealous cops and RR employees. This is nothing new. Its not the first time and surely will not be the last.

Suffice it to say that if you're a railfan and you are trespassing you MAY be reported and POSSIBLY arrested. Just because a railroad employee questions you it doesnt mean you are being harassed. This is the mandate that was issued by the company. Actually, the "If You See Something, Say Something" campaign was designed for those employees observing potentially suspicious behavior, to merely notify someone up the chain of command or the police of what they saw, noting the date, time, description and location of the person. It does not infer that ANY employee confront someone on their own.

All that being said, lets get back to the topic at hand here - Croton Harmon Rail Pics and lets stop discussing grave matters of national security.

[MNR's #1 Conductor]

OK everyone - DEEP BREATH IN - HOLD IT - NOW EXHALE. Good. I think the point has been made here from both sides of the fence. There are some retard railfans out there as well as overzealous cops and RR employees. This is nothing new. Its not the first time and surely will not be the last.

Suffice it to say that if you're a railfan and you are trespassing you MAY be reported and POSSIBLY arrested. Just because a railroad employee questions you it doesnt mean you are being harassed. This is the mandate that was issued by the company. Actually, the "If You See Something, Say Something" campaign was designed for those employees observing potentially suspicious behavior, to merely notify someone up the chain of command or the police of what they saw, noting the date, time, description and location of the person. It does not infer that ANY employee confront someone on their own.

All that being said, lets get back to the topic at hand here - Croton Harmon Rail Pics and lets stop discussing grave matters of national security.

Full heartedly agree!! The thing that forever amazes me is that I to the current date have not EVER had any issues, and let's face it, a 6'3" 260lb guy stands out (and please no one say "well you are an employee" because outside of duty, I do not carry my ID on me), and if I do photography on MNR property when I am off duty, my locations are basically restricted to station platforms or public areas. If there was, let's say, something I wanted to catch in any of the yards, then I would carry my ID (obviously!!)

If someone is on a platform or on a train, in plain view not doing anything that would arouse suspicion (I have already on 2 occasions chased off "upskirter" perverts) I do not see the need to bother the person, especially if the photos are of just the trains. If it was station structures, bridge structures, signal equipment (close detailed shots) or track equipment, components or apparatus, then I would be concerned, or if the person was clearly trespassing, then I would be concerned and say something. One time I saw a small group of railfans in Poughkeepsie, off of Track 2 in the railroad service road under the overpass just at the south end of the station taking photos. I simply told them to move out of there, and showed them a good, LEGAL, spot right on the curbside of the parking lot which offered a clear, good view of the trains while being off the railroad right of way and property. They heeded the advice, and even agreed that the spot was good and thanked me!! I would never discourage a railfan from enjoying the great hobby, but if they are doing wrong, yes I will let them know, but do it without all the drama of any confrontation and or police assistance calls.

Folks, just relax!! As long as photographers and railfans are not in places they shouldn't be, not taking pictures of things other than the trains themselves, not being secretive with what they are doing, and not endangering themselves or others with their actions or adversely affecting railroad/transit operations, give 'em a break!! And if someone takes a shot of your train......try smiling and waving!! No harm done there, folks, I have done it countless times, and to date I have not been the butt of an embarrassingly altered photo with me as the subject being ridiculed (actually the tourist women from out of state or from other countries kinda love it when you are photogenic for them!! TRUST ME!! ) So folks, please, like someone has said here already.......take a deep breath and RE-LAX!! R-E-L-A-X!!! Saves you in stress, gray hairs and heart attacks!! .....and you might even make someone's day and make 'em happy, and like us juuuuuuuust a little more!!

[Darien Red Sox]

Full heartedly agree!! The thing that forever amazes me is that I to the current date have not EVER had any issues, and let's face it, a 6'3" 260lb guy stands out (and please no one say "well you are an employee" because outside of duty, I do not carry my ID on me), and if I do photography on MNR property when I am off duty, my locations are basically restricted to station platforms or public areas. If there was, let's say, something I wanted to catch in any of the yards, then I would carry my ID (obviously!!)

If someone is on a platform or on a train, in plain view not doing anything that would arouse suspicion (I have already on 2 occasions chased off "upskirter" perverts) I do not see the need to bother the person, especially if the photos are of just the trains. If it was station structures, bridge structures, signal equipment (close detailed shots) or track equipment, components or apparatus, then I would be concerned, or if the person was clearly trespassing, then I would be concerned and say something. One time I saw a small group of railfans in Poughkeepsie, off of Track 2 in the railroad service road under the overpass just at the south end of the station taking photos. I simply told them to move out of there, and showed them a good, LEGAL, spot right on the curbside of the parking lot which offered a clear, good view of the trains while being off the railroad right of way and property. They heeded the advice, and even agreed that the spot was good and thanked me!! I would never discourage a railfan from enjoying the great hobby, but if they are doing wrong, yes I will let them know, but do it without all the drama of any confrontation and or police assistance calls.

Folks, just relax!! As long as photographers and railfans are not in places they shouldn't be, not taking pictures of things other than the trains themselves, not being secretive with what they are doing, and not endangering themselves or others with their actions or adversely affecting railroad/transit operations, give 'em a break!! And if someone takes a shot of your train......try smiling and waving!! No harm done there, folks, I have done it countless times, and to date I have not been the butt of an embarrassingly altered photo with me as the subject being ridiculed (actually the tourist women from out of state or from other countries kinda love it when you are photogenic for them!! TRUST ME!! ) So folks, please, like someone has said here already.......take a deep breath and RE-LAX!! R-E-L-A-X!!! Saves you in stress, gray hairs and heart attacks!! .....and you might even make someone's day and make 'em happy, and like us juuuuuuuust a little more!!

Nicely said,
I can say that not once have I had a problem with an MTA employee in all of my time rail fanning, in fact some of them have even come up to me and talked about trains. We have a great railroad with many great employees being a commuter for the past 2 1/2 years I have only encountered one rude conductor who was making comments to passengers of a certain race going to certain places about them trying to rip him off on the rail fare. The customer service center though is not up to the standards of the Conductors and Engineers, often times they will forget to announce late trains and try to blame it on a broken PA system at the station or something else, yesterday though I spoke to the first customer service agent who knew what he was doing and was able to help me. Railfanning I have only had two problems, the rude fellow railfan mentioned in my above post and one commuter who did not like people standing by the rail fan window b/c he felt they were two close to his seat, he was not very polite about it ether and even mouthed off at the conductor when he went up there to talk to the engineer.

[MNCRR9000]

OK everyone - DEEP BREATH IN - HOLD IT - NOW EXHALE. Good. I think the point has been made here from both sides of the fence. There are some retard railfans out there as well as overzealous cops and RR employees. This is nothing new. Its not the first time and surely will not be the last.

Suffice it to say that if you're a railfan and you are trespassing you MAY be reported and POSSIBLY arrested. Just because a railroad employee questions you it doesnt mean you are being harassed. This is the mandate that was issued by the company. Actually, the "If You See Something, Say Something" campaign was designed for those employees observing potentially suspicious behavior, to merely notify someone up the chain of command or the police of what they saw, noting the date, time, description and location of the person. It does not infer that ANY employee confront someone on their own.

All that being said, lets get back to the topic at hand here - Croton Harmon Rail Pics and lets stop discussing grave matters of national security.

Full heartedly agree!! The thing that forever amazes me is that I to the current date have not EVER had any issues, and let's face it, a 6'3" 260lb guy stands out (and please no one say "well you are an employee" because outside of duty, I do not carry my ID on me), and if I do photography on MNR property when I am off duty, my locations are basically restricted to station platforms or public areas. If there was, let's say, something I wanted to catch in any of the yards, then I would carry my ID (obviously!!)



If someone is on a platform or on a train, in plain view not doing anything that would arouse suspicion (I have already on 2 occasions chased off "upskirter" perverts) I do not see the need to bother the person, especially if the photos are of just the trains. If it was station structures, bridge structures, signal equipment (close detailed shots) or track equipment, components or apparatus, then I would be concerned, or if the person was clearly trespassing, then I would be concerned and say something. One time I saw a small group of railfans in Poughkeepsie, off of Track 2 in the railroad service road under the overpass just at the south end of the station taking photos. I simply told them to move out of there, and showed them a good, LEGAL, spot right on the curbside of the parking lot which offered a clear, good view of the trains while being off the railroad right of way and property. They heeded the advice, and even agreed that the spot was good and thanked me!! I would never discourage a railfan from enjoying the great hobby, but if they are doing wrong, yes I will let them know, but do it without all the drama of any confrontation and or police assistance calls.

Folks, just relax!! As long as photographers and railfans are not in places they shouldn't be, not taking pictures of things other than the trains themselves, not being secretive with what they are doing, and not endangering themselves or others with their actions or adversely affecting railroad/transit operations, give 'em a break!! And if someone takes a shot of your train......try smiling and waving!! No harm done there, folks, I have done it countless times, and to date I have not been the butt of an embarrassingly altered photo with me as the subject being ridiculed (actually the tourist women from out of state or from other countries kinda love it when you are photogenic for them!! TRUST ME!! ) So folks, please, like someone has said here already.......take a deep breath and RE-LAX!! R-E-L-A-X!!! Saves you in stress, gray hairs and heart attacks!! .....and you might even make someone's day and make 'em happy, and like us juuuuuuuust a little more!!

Very nicely said!