Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby BandA » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:20 am

I also was thinking, wouldn't it be cheaper in the medium-run to move the 25Hz break rather than extend third-rail & build DC substation(s)?
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby Jenny on a M2 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:54 am

New Haven Line rolling stock (M8s) can only run off of 60Hz AC; their transformers do not accept 25 Hz. Therefore, they're running on 700VDC LIRR-style from the phase break to NYP.

That's why the DC extension is necessary :-D
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby andrewjw » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:00 pm

The question is, why not move the phase break from its current location to the location of the current end of 700VDC third rail, extending the 60hz zone and shortening the 25hz zone?
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby DutchRailnut » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:12 am

it would move the switchover point to close to probably busiest interlocking in US , giving no time to trains to get up to speed or fail within that interlocking.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby andrewjw » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:25 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:it would move the switchover point to close to probably busiest interlocking in US , giving no time to trains to get up to speed or fail within that interlocking.

Thanks! Makes sense.
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby njt/mnrrbuff » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:55 am

I hope that MNR plans to run off peak and weekend service to the E. Bronx. There are plenty of people living in those sections who like taking trips into Midtown for the day. There might even be Manhattan residents who might want to spend a day at Pelham Bay Park, located very close to Co-op City and where the depot would be. There are even people who work at the hospitals near Morris Park who might live along the Hellgate Line.
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby ziggyzack1234 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:13 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:it would move the switchover point to close to probably busiest interlocking in US , giving no time to trains to get up to speed or fail within that interlocking.


Why not move the phase-break into, say... New Jersey? Between the tunnel portals and Secaucus? NJT equipment is able to run both systems, and trains are going a good speed. Would be good in the long run to get the NEC unified on one frequency.
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby Backshophoss » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:06 pm

Amtrak will never move the changeover point to the west of NY City. the former PRR grid ENDS at CP Gate!
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby Ridgefielder » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:55 pm

njt/mnrrbuff wrote:I hope that MNR plans to run off peak and weekend service to the E. Bronx. There are plenty of people living in those sections who like taking trips into Midtown for the day. There might even be Manhattan residents who might want to spend a day at Pelham Bay Park, located very close to Co-op City and where the depot would be. There are even people who work at the hospitals near Morris Park who might live along the Hellgate Line.

I'm pretty sure the service plan will be the same as on the other inner-ring MNR lines-- hourly or half-hourly off-peak service from 05:00 to 02:00. Will be interesting to see what direction peak-hour service runs: I'd imagine a substantial number of people who live in the E Bronx work in lower Westchester, or even Connecticut.

Will also be interesting to see how long it takes before Pelham Manor starts complaining about not having a station once the service is up and running. :wink:
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby njt/mnrrbuff » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:31 pm

I was thinking the same thing about Pelham Manor. It looks like much of the right of way through Pelham Manor is surrounded by a golf course on the east side and Rt. 95 on the west side with a lot of residential development. Assuming that there is enough room for a station between Downtown New Rochelle and Co-op City, I would put it near Boston Post Rd, located in New Rochelle but very close to the Pelham Manor border. Once the NEC separates from I-95, it passes by a golf course on both sides of the tracks. In Pelham Manor itself, maybe a station would work near Pelhamdale Ave but I’m not sure if a lot of parking would be able to be added. The same thing goes with the location in New Rochelle near Boston Post Road.
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby EuroStar » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:02 am

Backshophoss wrote:Amtrak will never move the changeover point to the west of NY City. the former PRR grid ENDS at CP Gate!

Let me add some details. Everything west of CP Gate is the old PRR grid and is fed from New Jersey with high power cables in the Hudson and East River tunnels. It is 25Hz, 12.5kV. To move the phase break west of NYP will require finding a source of commercial 60Hz power and building a substation to handle Sunnyside yard, the tunnels and Penn Station itself. The voltage is forever limited to 12.5kV due to the low clearances in the tunnels and Penn. Such a new substation will be much more expensive than the much smaller thing that is required to feed the 1 mile of third rail. Additionally, while I am not familiar with the details, I suspect that NJT's Arrows might not like the phase change. While it is true that the Arrows are on their way out, they will be with NJT for at least 5 more years, and given that this is NJT more likely 10.
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby DutchRailnut » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:50 am

There is a damned good reason the soon 500 car M-8's got third rail gear compatible with LIRR third rail.
Amtrak has not been charging fair amount for Catenary use, the LIRR is in charge of their power and a MTA company.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby Backshophoss » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:02 am

The FRA has never been happy of the 3rd rail and the 12, 5kv 25hz wire sharing the SAME space in Penn Station,that's been "Grandfathered"
way back when. FRA would most likely never approve any conversion to 12.5 kv 60 hz power.
On top of that,Con ED's power grid in Manhattan and Queens can barely handle NYCTA's and MN's power demands,would melt the cables
in the streets trying to handle Amtrak's power demands.
Leave it alone!
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby SRich » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:55 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:There is a damned good reason the soon 500 car M-8's got third rail gear compatible with LIRR third rail.
Amtrak has not been charging fair amount for Catenary use, the LIRR is in charge of their power and a MTA company.

Even on the EAST RIVER Tunnels and Penn ?
Greatings from the Netherlands
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

Postby DutchRailnut » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:02 pm

yes the third rail power is MTA supplied.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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