Metro-North Penn Station Access Study (PSAS)

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Metro-North Penn Station Access Study (PSAS)

Postby JayMan » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:30 pm

If and when MN Penn access is instituded (assuming that LIRR ESA is out of the way, slots freed at NYP, etc...), would NH line trains be able to share the existing trackage with Amtrak or would new tracks need to be laid in the ROW?
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Postby Otto Vondrak » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:13 pm

Refresh my memory: When/why is MN going to Penn Station?

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Postby trainjunkies » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:24 pm

I thought that it was only LIRR access to GCT from Queens. I don't think that included continuing service to Penn.
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Postby DutchRailnut » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:34 pm

it would be up to Amtrak to create extra slots for trains into Penn station, if and when they are created they will go to LIRR and NJT, not to MNCR.
with ESA there will no slots lost by LIRR same amount of trains will go to Penn station.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Postby JayMan » Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:51 am

Otto Vondrak wrote:Refresh my memory: When/why is MN going to Penn Station?

-otto-


I have no idea! :-) I was just wondering in the case if it were to happen if it that would be case. Try to see if there were any impedements for use of the Amtrak ROW for other purposes.
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Postby Swedish Meatball » Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:32 am

I would imagine that the biggest problem would be the 3rd rail, from Harold interlocking to Penn. The M-2,4,6 ride below the rail. I believe when the shoes make contact the pantograph's come down automatically. MNRR employees would have to qualify on NORAC + the addition of ACESS cab signals. I would not expect anything to soon. A Co-op City stop makes alot of sense thou.
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Postby Mr Met » Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:35 pm

there is overhead wires from hellgate into penn os M-2 M-4 M-6's can run off those
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Postby arnstg » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:38 pm

With the limited number of tracks available at NYP compared to GCT, is this really possible?
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Postby Otto Vondrak » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:56 pm

The obstacles are:

- not enough room/slots at penn station to accomodate more trains
- MN equipment not compatible with LIRR side
- third rail shoes not compatible
- overhead AC not compatible
- cab signals not compatible
- MN won't want to set up another terminal in New York
- you would have to set up MN ticketing, MN timetables, and MN staffing
- No funding or money for additional service or crews or equipment
- Two more rulebooks to learn (LIRR and Amtrak)

What advantage would New Haven Line commuters have in being directed to Penn Station?
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Postby JayMan » Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:15 pm

No advantages, that I can see. Except the only thing that might be useful would have been a connection to Co-op City (would have been to me whence coming in from MN and staying in that area -- it's a long ride on the Bx12 from Fordham to Bay Plaza :-) ). But overall, with all that's in the way, I don't think it's worth it, myself.
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Postby Tom V » Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:19 pm

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Postby DutchRailnut » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:57 pm

Don't put to much faith in MTA studies, the study people also wanted to run LIRR into subway, something FRA won't allow.
the final word would be Amtrak, and then LIRR and NJT would sue for those slots anyway.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Postby jlr3266 » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:19 pm

MN access to Penn is in the "interesting alternative" stage and would be made easier after ESA does some reconfiguring in Harold (eventually).
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etc

Postby Noel Weaver » Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:17 am

In order to run Metro-North MU equipment into Penn Station, the third rail
shoes would have to be removed completely. Otherwise when the shoes
make contact with a live third rail, the pans come down automatically.
If the shoes were of the type that could be raised, maybe the MU's could
run in there but I am not sure that the pantographs are suitable for
operation through the east river lines.
Such cars would also have to have additional radio channels available.
Crews would have to qualify on NORAC rules but not LIRR rules.
I believe the cab signal system would not need any modifications in order
to operate into Penn Station.
Some of the M series cars can't be operated with AC 25 cycle power which
is still in use at Penn Station. I think the M-2's are the only ones that can
and they may have been modified by now so maybe even those cars
could not.
I think the biggest problem would be lack of track capacity especially in
the confines of Penn Station itself.
I can't imagine Metro-North wanting to run trains into Penn Station when
they already have a very adequate terminal in Manhattan with enough
capacity for everything they operate and likely more if necessary.
As I pointed out once before on one of these topics, at one time under the
former New Haven Railroad the FL-9's had adjustable shoes that could
operate with either the under running third rail into Grand Central Terminal or the over running third rail into Penn Station. These engines
could and did actually start out of Penn Station light up to New Rochelle,
change ends and go light to Grand Central. All we had to do was to
remember to put the third rail shoes up before we hit the rake off blocks
going from Harold to the Hell Gate Bridge. If we forgot, the rake off blocks would do the job for us and all of the shoes would have to be
replaced on both sides. Occasionally this happened.
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Postby johnpbarlow » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:23 pm

I know the track connection doesn't exist but MN use of the Hell Gate line directly between Connecticut and Jamaica (and JFK airport) /Long Island might be interesting. Could save 30+ minutes and perhaps be car competitive. And MN could use diesels.
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