Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby fredmcain » Thu May 11, 2017 6:04 am

Mr. Dowling,

I distinctly remember that at one time there was a lot of serious discussion about electrifying Croton/Harmon - Albany. They were talking about overhead catenary. But in recent years I haven't heard anything more about this.
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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby EuroStar » Thu May 11, 2017 6:43 am

I though that at one point the plan had been to electrify up to Peekskill and run the EMUs up to there, but maybe I am mixing up things.
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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby Rockingham Racer » Thu May 11, 2017 7:12 am

That would be "re-electrify up to Peeksill". Back in the day, it was electric, and some few evening rush hour trains terminated there. And sometime back in the 70's [?], there was talk of doing third rail as far as Poughkeepsie. Never heard of going all the way to Albany.
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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby DutchRailnut » Thu May 11, 2017 7:21 am

Electrification was never upto Peekskill, tHru service was offered by towing a couple of MU cars or RDC's after Harmon.
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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby Rockingham Racer » Thu May 11, 2017 7:31 am

DutchRailnut wrote:Electrification was never upto Peekskill, tHru service was offered by towing a couple of MU cars or RDC's after Harmon.


Hmm, I must be having a "senior moment". :wink:
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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby fredmcain » Thu May 11, 2017 8:16 am

Rockingham Racer wrote: Never heard of going all the way to Albany.


Well, I remember seeing this in the news; mighta been back in the 1980s. However, I tried to "Google" for it and turned up nothing.

Seems to me, thought, that if they ran the third rail all the way to Poughkeepsie, they'd be able to standardize their equipment more with MUs.

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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby Patrick A. » Thu May 11, 2017 11:01 am

Extending third rail to Poughkeepsie would be more than doubling the distance covered by 3rd rail on the Hudson line from 33 miles to 74 miles. Not sure how many additional substations would be required for such a distance. The Harlem line electrification runs 53 miles up to Southeast from GCT, by way of comparison. While 3rd rail would be less offensive from a sight standpoint (sans substations) versus catenary for the NIMBY crowd, the benefits just don't seem to make sense to justify the additional expense.

Compared with all of the other critical railroad infrastructure projects in the region, have to imagine this one would be far far far down on the list in terms of relative import.
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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Thu May 11, 2017 3:35 pm

If they go to Albany, the third rail is getting ripped out north of Spuyten Duyvil, 25 kV overhead is getting strung where only 3 substations can cover the entire near-150 miles, and MNRR will be ordering New Haven Line MU's to run the Hudson out of GCT & NYP and sending it surplus-to-(Harlem)-requirement 3rd rail-only MU's to retirement or LIRR repurposement.

All of that...including the SD-CH re-electrification and rolling stock purchase...are less expensive and less painful than building new substations every 6 miles to poke north of Croton-Harmon. 750V DC just doesn't scale well at intercity distances. If Albany ever gets truly serious about funding NYSHSR, there'll be enough MNRR pot-sweetener for the electrification change and rolling stock to get their cooperation. Blind opposition from the MTA isn't a fait accompli if the effort to do Keystone-or-better service all the way up the Hudson is deadly serious about treating the whole corridor's needs...commuter and intercity. It's just that Albany thus far is really half-arsing it on the NYSHSR studies, and interagency turf warrage is NY politics' favorite sport. Passive-aggressiveness isn't a terminal condition. It's just that if nothing changes...nothing changes and of course change-resistant fiefdoms are going to butt heads.
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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby fredmcain » Fri May 12, 2017 6:21 am

F-Line,

Your comments jibe with what I thought I'd heard/read back in the 1980s. High voltage catenary to Albany (to be used by Amtrak - not M-N). Like the former New Haven locomotives, they would presumably be equipped with under-running third rail shoes for 750vdc collection south of Croton/Harmon. Bear in mind, this plan that I believe I remember predates the Amtrak move into Penn Station. Since the third rails in Penn Station are over-running instead of under-running that will muddy the water a bit more.

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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby NH2060 » Fri May 12, 2017 8:25 pm

fredmcain wrote:F-Line,Since the third rails in Penn Station are over-running instead of under-running that will muddy the water a bit more.


That wouldn't necessarily be an issue since the catenary extends for about a few blocks north of the tunnel entrance. So even if the Hudson Line weren't to go completely 25kv overhead SD-Croton they could still extend the wires to SD, have the locos switch to the 3rd rail and then switch again at Croton.
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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby Backshophoss » Fri May 12, 2017 9:58 pm

The 3rd rail ends at Croton North,now an abandoned station.
Back in the NYC days there were RDC trips that turned at Peekskill back to Croton-Harmon during the AM/PM rush.
In the early PC days,a pair of RS-3's would tow a set of EMU's to Peekskill or Poughkeepsie,the only lighting was on battery power
after clearing the 3rd rail at Croton North.

Amtrak would need to tap 1 of the Penn station feeders to extend north to a substation placed half way to DV movable bridge
to extend 12.5 kv 25 hz power to the bridge,then invest in some ALP45DP's(built by BBD,unlikely to happen)

By now Siemens has some designs of a Dual powered Charger in the works,that will become the answer for Amtrak,MN and LIRR
in the near future.
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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby SRich » Sat May 13, 2017 6:02 am

If 25 kV~ 60 Hz is al real option, why not buy just a few new ACS-64 and then electrify the empire connection with 12.5 kV~25Hz and then after the break power the overhead with 25 kV~ 60 Hz. You can get rid of the Dual Power (Electro-Diesel) loc's, and MN can use the more M8 on the Hudson line with higher speeds (up to 100 m/h).

The only thing is the Amtrak of NY state should buy the leased line from CSX to Albany, so ownership is not a problem in the electrification in the near future...
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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby Ridgefielder » Tue May 16, 2017 11:04 am

SRich wrote:If 25 kV~ 60 Hz is al real option, why not buy just a few new ACS-64 and then electrify the empire connection with 12.5 kV~25Hz and then after the break power the overhead with 25 kV~ 60 Hz. You can get rid of the Dual Power (Electro-Diesel) loc's, and MN can use the more M8 on the Hudson line with higher speeds (up to 100 m/h).

The only thing is the Amtrak of NY state should buy the leased line from CSX to Albany, so ownership is not a problem in the electrification in the near future...

Not sure there's overhead clearance on the Empire Connection for 25kV catenary.
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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby Backshophoss » Tue May 16, 2017 7:47 pm

The Empire connection already has 12.5 kv 25 hz catenary installed .
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Re: Metro-North Hudson Line Electrification

Postby DutchRailnut » Wed May 17, 2017 6:54 am

Empire tunnel yes, and a itty bitty piece of Empire connector.
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