Fordham Service Questions (GCT - Fordham and New Haven Line)

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, Jeff Smith, FL9AC

Post Reply
RearOfSignal
Posts: 2546
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:31 pm

Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Post by RearOfSignal » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:29 am

The train doesn't have to stop at Fordham or Mt. Vernon East for the ride to be extended to/from GCT or Harlem 125. It doesn't matter what the next station is. However if this happened on a Hudson or Harlem line train, then the next station would come into play. Some trains make R stops at White Plains and then go express to Chappaqua, then the ride extension would be to zone 5 or zone 6 in the case of train 967. The New Haven Line is the only line that has D stops(outside of zone 1) while inbound to GCT thus the special rule.
Hurry up and wait at the signal!

checkthedoorlight
Posts: 1254
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:11 am

Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Post by checkthedoorlight » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:56 pm

1571 ran express from Stamford to Fordham back when I was a daily commuter to Stamford. Fordham was dropped from 1571 as on the 4/6/08 schedule. One of the conductors of that train would make an announcement at Fordham that if anybody boarded that train, they would be charged from Stamford to GCT.

RearOfSignal
Posts: 2546
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:31 pm

Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Post by RearOfSignal » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:32 pm

checkthedoorlight wrote:1571 ran express from Stamford to Fordham back when I was a daily commuter to Stamford. Fordham was dropped from 1571 as on the 4/6/08 schedule. One of the conductors of that train would make an announcement at Fordham that if anybody boarded that train, they would be charged from Stamford to GCT.


Yeah exactly, so like I said you had a ticket Stamford to Fordham, the portion is covered Stamford to Mt. Vernon East, you would pay the extension from Mt. Vernon East to GCT or Harlem 125th.

If you didn't have a ticket at all and got on at Fordham, well that's a different story then. Now you have nothing to extend at the station fare. Now you're paying the full fare from the last station stop.

It's always cheaper to extend a ride then to buy a ticket on-board the train.
Hurry up and wait at the signal!

checkthedoorlight
Posts: 1254
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:11 am

Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Post by checkthedoorlight » Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:02 pm

...and thus continues the ongoing debate about if someone boards an inbound New Haven train at Fordham, if they get charged from the last receiving stop the train made, or from MVE. I've heard arguments for both from active MNRR conductors, which means that either there's no official policy, or there are CRs who make up their own rules rather than follow it. I've seen others board at Fordham and just give a Fordham-GCT ticket to the conductor, with no further discussion too.

Just like there was once a Harlem line conductor who refused to let me use my GCT-Stamford monthly to ride GCT-Hawthorne and charged me the full onboard fare. I had to write into MNRR customer service to get a refund, which took a couple weeks. I hope that refund came right out of that CR's paycheck.

RearOfSignal
Posts: 2546
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:31 pm

Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Post by RearOfSignal » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:24 pm

checkthedoorlight wrote:I've heard arguments for both from active MNRR conductors, which means that either there's no official policy...


I tend to agree, aspects of the fare rules are ambiguous at best... but that is what gives the conductors leeway. Lots of this is based on principle and not hard rules. You can only apply rules to specific situations, but principles can be adapted. Conductors have discretion if someone should be charged based on extenuating circumstances with the exception of station fare and on-board fares.

Well from MNRR timetable... "Should any questions arise as to proper fare and ticket privileges, please pay fare requested, obtain receipt, and communicate with us."

I've actually asked this question to the head of PRA before they retired just a few months ago.

It was like this an express train Stamford to GCT with D stop at Fordham. Someone gets on at Fordham with no ticket at all. You would not charge from Mt. Vernon because the train didn't stop there. Everyone else on the train paid from at least Stamford to GCT, why should someone getting on at Fordham(which they can't do) pay only from Mt. Vernon to GCT when everyone else is paying more. That was the answer I got. There's only a handful of trains where this situation can happen according to the current timetable(Discharge at Fordham when last stop other than Mt. Vernon East). Overall this is a very rare thing to happen. And though I hate to say it there are ways a customer could talk their way out of it. We have to give them the benefit of the doubt. Really, sometimes it's not worth calling cops, delaying trains and going crazy for something you know you can't win.

But anyway, talking about fares on this forum is not to be taken as an official response. So take whatever you get here with a grain of salt.
Hurry up and wait at the signal!

kjd73170
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:01 am

Metro North at Fordham

Post by kjd73170 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:36 am

I have a question, when did Metro North start having Fordham as both a New Haven and Harlem line stop? Or did that go back to the New York/Penn Central days?

User avatar
Kilgore Trout
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:09 am

Re: Metro North at Fordahm

Post by Kilgore Trout » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:29 am

IIRC when the NH started running into GCT, they were allowed one station stop on Central tracks. Initially it was Woodlawn (right after the junction), but the NH requested Fordham because of the large number of Fordham University students and their families. The agreement has been basically unchanged since the 1920s. I also recall reading something about CDOT inheriting, so to speak, the NH's side of the agreement, but I could be conflating it with other discussions here re:NH line stops in New York City.
Welcome to New York Penn Station. You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.

kjd73170
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:01 am

Re: Metro North at Fordahm

Post by kjd73170 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:28 pm

I saw this thread and thought it deserved a look because it gave me some insight into New Haven operations in the Bronx. viewtopic.php?f=67&t=49542&hilit=Bronx+Stops&start=30 . The answers I was looking for were there as well, having to do with Bond issues of the NYC and NH (even post PC merger) and the political pressure put on to the NYC for NH trains to stop in the Bronx at Fordham, etc. etc. etc.....

Very interesting answers to my topic, thanks original posters!

Noel Weaver
Posts: 9630
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: Pompano Beach, Florida

Re: Metro North at Fordahm

Post by Noel Weaver » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:40 pm

The New Haven had a Woodlawn stop way back when. Actually the Fordham stop begain after the MTA started supporting the service on the New Haven Line with a very small number of trains and it has mushroomed into a very important station stop. This occurred after both the New York Central and the New Haven passed out of existance in so far as railroad operations were concerned.
Noel Weaver

User avatar
Otto Vondrak
Posts: 20281
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Metro North at Fordham

Post by Otto Vondrak » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:09 pm

If I recall correctly, New Haven trains did not stop at Fordham until 1977.

I think the original agreement going back to 1848 or whatever was that the New Haven could run over the tracks of the New York Central to gain access to Grand Central, but were not allowed to pick up or drop off passengers at NYC stations. Perhaps exception was 125th Street? And Woodlawn Jct. as Noel mentioned? At any rate, the 1848 agreement would have been null with the acquisition by Penn Central in 1969...

-otto-
----------------------------------------------
Moderator: New York State Railfan :: New York Central :: Toy Trains
NYW&B Fan Site :: A Magazine I Read Often :: A Museum I Volunteer At

Noel Weaver
Posts: 9630
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: Pompano Beach, Florida

Re: Metro North at Fordham

Post by Noel Weaver » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:40 pm

Otto Vondrak wrote:If I recall correctly, New Haven trains did not stop at Fordham until 1977.

At any rate, the 1848 agreement would have been null with the acquisition by Penn Central in 1969...

-otto-


I believe this is what started the New Haven Line stopping at Fordham in the first place.
Noel Weaver

Ridgefielder
Posts: 2609
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: Harlem Division MP 15

Re: Metro North at Fordahm

Post by Ridgefielder » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:16 pm

Noel Weaver wrote:The New Haven had a Woodlawn stop way back when. Actually the Fordham stop begain after the MTA started supporting the service on the New Haven Line with a very small number of trains and it has mushroomed into a very important station stop. This occurred after both the New York Central and the New Haven passed out of existance in so far as railroad operations were concerned.
Noel Weaver

Noel- Was the New Haven stop at the current location of the Woodlawn station, or was it up the hill on New Haven trackage?

Noel Weaver
Posts: 9630
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 9:33 pm
Location: Pompano Beach, Florida

Re: Metro North at Fordahm

Post by Noel Weaver » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:33 am

Ridgefielder wrote:
Noel Weaver wrote:The New Haven had a Woodlawn stop way back when. Actually the Fordham stop begain after the MTA started supporting the service on the New Haven Line with a very small number of trains and it has mushroomed into a very important station stop. This occurred after both the New York Central and the New Haven passed out of existance in so far as railroad operations were concerned.
Noel Weaver

Noel- Was the New Haven stop at the current location of the Woodlawn station, or was it up the hill on New Haven trackage?


I got this information out of an old New Haven public timetable. In both 1916 and 1920 one train in each direction made the station stop at Woodlawn and from the employee timetables of the period it appears that it was the existing New York Central Harlem Division passenger station at Woodlawn. The public timetable states to receive passengers eastbound and to discharge passenger westbound. The employee timetable simply lists it as an "S" stop.
My oldest New York Central Electric Division timetable dates to 1933 and by then the Woodlawn stop was no longer made by any New Haven Railroad trains as so listed also in the New Haven employee timetables of the period.
Noel Weaver

nytrainsgogo
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:21 pm
Location: White Plains NY

Re: First stop - Fordham

Post by nytrainsgogo » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:47 pm

Some runs should be started at Port Chester to allow NH line passengers in Westchester to get to Bronx stops and not back track. And to avoid CDOT

User avatar
Otto Vondrak
Posts: 20281
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:47 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: First stop - Fordham

Post by Otto Vondrak » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:08 pm

What does this have to do with serving Fordham, and why are we trying to "avoid CDOT?"
----------------------------------------------
Moderator: New York State Railfan :: New York Central :: Toy Trains
NYW&B Fan Site :: A Magazine I Read Often :: A Museum I Volunteer At

Post Reply

Return to “MTA Metro-North Railroad and CtDOT Passenger Rail”