Fordham Service Questions (GCT - Fordham and New Haven Line)

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby lilbluefoxie » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:29 am

the timetable says it stops in those places, if one stands by the door when it reaches the station, the door has to open at least, or does the T/O just skip the stop if noones waiting there on New Haven trains
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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby truck6018 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:56 am

Just because the timetable says it stops there, doesn't mean you can get off the train there. For example, if someone departing GCT on a New Haven line train has a ticket for Fordham, the conductor will extend the ticket to Mount Vernon East because that's the first stop the train will discharge passengers at.

It's not up to the engineer (there are no T/O's employed with Metro North) to decide to skip stations just because there doesn't appear to be any passengers at these stops. Passengers could be hiding in stairwells or shelters waiting for the train to come through.

Generally speaking, should one want to travel from GCT to 125 for Fordam, per the timetables, it's Harlem or Hudson line locals that discharge passengers at these stops. The same holds true for those traveling from Fordham or 125 to GCT.
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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby checkthedoorlight » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:18 am

Isn't that the entire POINT of Cityticket?

I've never had issues riding within the city on H/H trains, even those marked R/D.
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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby Terminal Proceed » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:56 am

It doesn't matter what YOU think the point should be. What matters is what the regulations say. You are not supposed to take any NH Line outbound train to any other stop other than its first discharge point on the NH Line. This has to do with tariff regulations. Additionally you are not permitted, except maybe under special circumstances to board a NH LIne train within the confines of the City of NY and travel to GCT. Thems the rules - plain and simple.

As far as stopping at 125 St. You are not supposed to board an Express or Semi- Express, regardless of whether the train indicates it stops at 125 St. First of all, the crew is under no obligation to open all doors at receive only stations. There are many outbound peak trains, esp on the Hudson where only 2 or 3 doors are opened to receive passengers. If you were standing near a door which did not open in that case - it c=would simply be your tough luck. I have worked jobs where the same was true at White Plains. Outbound first stop indicated is Valhalla or something further up and we stopped to receive at WP - only opened 2 door leaves - one for me and one for my trainman - passengers entering were made to surrender their ticket or show their pass prior to boarding. All others being turned away. (If you needed to purchase, you do so from the crew member after ticket holders were admitted.)

Pretty much all regular outbound local H&H trains were good for stops at 125 & Fordham. Bitch & cry all you want - but that's the way it is.
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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby metrony » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:09 am

Train 857 (5:53pm to Poughkeepsie) stops at Harmon to receive passengers only. The conductor only opens one door and at GCT usually makes the announcement if you're a Harmon passenger board train train 763 (5:57pm). I remember one time the train stopped at Harmon and the doors didn't open and the person ran down the train looking the car that was open (it's the last car most of the time) - the conductor wasn't too happy about that.
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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:28 pm

I assume it is a ConnDOT regulation restricting local passengers from being carried within Manhattan and Bronx on New Haven trains?
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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby DutchRailnut » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:40 pm

you can use any Harlem local to get to Fordham or go from Fordham to GCT
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby Otto Vondrak » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:04 pm

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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby Jeff Smith » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:10 pm

R36 Combine Coach wrote:I assume it is a ConnDOT regulation restricting local passengers from being carried within Manhattan and Bronx on New Haven trains?


Some background:

http://trainjotting.com/category/fordham-road/

Okay, so, the Central was happy because the New Haven would now be subsidizing its operating costs by paying rent for track usage. Emphasis on usage. The Central might let New Haven trains roll on its tracks, but it would be damned if it was going to let the New Haven generate actual revenue from New York Central customers who’d be boarding trains at the handful of stations between Woodlawn and Grand Central.



And so the New Haven, while free to discharge its own passengers at stations such as Williams Bridge and Fordham, was prohibited from boarding passengers there. If you were a passenger traveling between two points in New York Central territory, your money was going to stay with the New York Central. (Listen, the robber barons did not get rich by accident.)

To this day, that rule—or a surviving incarnation of it—is still observed, only now the players are the New Haven Division and the Harlem Division, both of Metro North. And that’s the rub, isn’t it? The rule made sense back when you had two competing private railroads—but the New Haven and the New York Central railroads have been gone for about 36 years now and Metro North runs everything.

So why is this dumb rule still in place?

I won’t pretend to know the deepest bureaucratic vagaries that must apply, here, but the essence of it is that, even though the red (New Haven) and blue (Harlem and Hudson) trains are all operated by Metro North, one train is not necessarily interchangeable with another. New Haven trains are partially funded by tax revenues from the State of Connecticut, just like Harlem and Hudson trains operate with help from New York State money. And so the accounting books must still be kept separately to some degree. Just like in the old days, Connecticut trains ain’t allowed to make money with New York State passengers.


Interesting background: up until the 1920's, the New Haven Line stopped at Woodlawn, not Fordham.

http://www.stationreporter.net/harlem.htm

Woodlawn is the last station before the New Haven Line splits off. It has two four-car side platforms, with 233rd Street serving as the crossover. New Haven Line trains formerly stopped here as part of the New Haven Railroad's trackage-rights agreement with the New York Central, which allows New Haven trains one stop in the Bronx. The agreement was changed to allow New Haven trains to stop at Fordham instead in the 1920's, due to the popularity of college football and the ensuing crowds, along with the rise of Fordham Road as a regional shopping district. There is a tiny parking area on the Track 4 side. The station is not fully ADA accessible.
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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby DutchRailnut » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:18 pm

Don't forget that New Haven is basicly a contract operation, while Harlem and Hudson are pure Metro-North
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby truck6018 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:07 pm

checkthedoorlight wrote:Isn't that the entire POINT of Cityticket?



City tickets have absolutely nothing to do with this situation. City tickets are only available on weekends for use on the day of purchase. It is my understanding the purpose of the city ticket have prices more comparable to the subways to generate some additional weekend revenue.

It is rare that a New Haven line conductor will let someone by for boarding at Fordham going South or getting off at Fordham going north. In most cases the passenger will be required to purchase a Mount Vernon East ticket on board.
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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby checkthedoorlight » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:18 pm

Man did I love it back in the day when I would board a NH train at Fordham, and the conductor was all excited about charging me a Stamford-GCT fare....at least until I flashed my STM-GCT monthly. I've likewise used that from riding from GCT-125 on NH trains (if that was the next train to leave) and the conductors never had an issue with that either.

Yes, you heard me, charge me from STAMFORD. There was at least one conductor who thought that passengers boarding at Fordham were supposed to be charged from the last receiving stop made on that route, as opposed to Mt Vernon.

Only opening a couple doors at 125 is news to me though - at least in my observation, all open cars open at all stations which can platform.
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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby truck6018 » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:07 am

checkthedoorlight wrote:
Yes, you heard me, charge me from STAMFORD. There was at least one conductor who thought that passengers boarding at Fordham were supposed to be charged from the last receiving stop made on that route, as opposed to Mt Vernon.



In most cases, the last receiving station stop is Mount Vernon East.
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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby RearOfSignal » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:53 am

But even on an express train from Stamford to GCT, if you had a Stamford to Fordham ticket the portion of the ride Stamford to Mt. Vernon East would still be covered even if you didn't stop there.
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Re: Possible to ride from GCT to 125th or Fordham?

Postby truck6018 » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:14 am

RearOfSignal wrote:But even on an express train from Stamford to GCT, if you had a Stamford to Fordham ticket the portion of the ride Stamford to Mt. Vernon East would still be covered even if you didn't stop there.


I suppose that would be the case if the express trains stopped there. At quick glance of the time table I don't see one train that goes express from Stamford to Fordham. Only the local trains (and local expresses) seem to stop at Fordham. It also appears there is only one New Haven bound train that stops at Fordham. Train #1544 departs from GCT @ 1615 hrs, stops at Fordam @ 1642 (only to receive passengers) and makes other various stops along the way to New Haven. If someone boarded this train from GCT or 125 then the conductor should only charge to New Rochelle (the same fare zone as Mount Vernon E), which is the next station stop on that train.
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