Fordham Service Questions (GCT - Fordham and New Haven Line)

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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Re: First stop - Fordham

Postby checkthedoorlight » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:01 pm

It's the same reason why the MTA keeps raising unlimited metrocards, but only gradually increasing single rides - people who can afford monthly tickets and get them on a regular basis are usually either wealthy enough that a couple extra dollars a month won't matter to them, and they won't go out of their way to "beat the system", or their company pays for their travel so it matters even less.
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Re: First stop - Fordham

Postby Tommy Meehan » Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:23 pm

checkthedoorlight wrote:...people who can afford monthly tickets and get them on a regular basis are usually either wealthy enough that a couple extra dollars a month won't matter to them or their company pays for their travel...


Hold on a second. It's people who ride everyday that buy monthlies (or 30-day MetroCards) and we're not all wealthy or even close to being wealthy, trust me. We buy them because they're cheaper. In the case of the Metro-North monthly tickets, they are a lot lot cheaper. If you ride everyday.

Ironically, that's the reason the MTA cited for raising the monthlies and unlimited-use MetroCards at a higher rate than single ride tickets. In this 'austerity era' they can't justify giving everyday riders such a big discount over regular fares.

I know many commuters but I have never known anyone who says they're reimbursed for their commutation costs. I'm sure it happens but I'd venture to say it's pretty rare.

Boy are WE getting off-thread! :)
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Re: First stop - Fordham

Postby checkthedoorlight » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:19 pm

Meet me. I get reimbursed (although most of my work is within NYC so I don't buy MNRR monthlies, but I do get reimbursed for my metrocard and the occasional single ride on MNRR/LIRR/NJT)
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Next Stahp Fahdam (Fordham MTA article)

Postby Jeff Smith » Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:15 pm

I'm going to copy this topic to both MNRR and NYC Subway. Obviously, discuss the related portion in the appropriate forum.

Fordham Ram

Some snippets (brief and fair-use):

Why Does the MTA Hate Fordham?

Aside from the MTA’s refusal to identify Fordham to its millions of daily riders, it has also had its way with limiting service to and from Rose Hill. Nearly 60 percent of trains stopping at Fordham’s Metro-North Station use the New Haven Line, or as many students who frequent the Metro-North know as “the red trains.” The other 40 percent of the trains run on the Harlem Line through Fordham and allow full access to and from the station, while the New Haven Line trains only permit passengers to exit inbound New Haven Line trains and to enter outbound trains.

After reaching out to a Metro-North spokesman for a comment, I was told that the New Haven Line trains do not provide access between Fordham and Grand Central. The State of Connecticut purchased the new M8 train cars and the trains are only operated by the MTA, not owned by the MTA. The Metro-North refused to explain why these trains stop at Fordham at all, and indicated that the “exit-only” service to Fordham on New Haven Line trains has been a policy for years.


I think the writer here is probably not aware of the history between the NYNH&H and NYC service. Originally, the stop was at Woodlawn; it was changed later to Fordham. The NYC obviously didn't want the NH serving inbound passengers on their ROW. Later, CtDOT didn't want to fund operations on Stamford express trains to Fordham according to their service agreement. So if you're going to Fordham and live in Bridgeport, you get to take a whole lot of local trains.

I think I have that right.

Now, this runs in the face of CtDOT wanting M8's to serve Penn and Bronx stations on the Harlem River Line. CtDOT wants to do that for the labor market, which makes me wonder why the parties don't amend the agreement to allow full service at Fordham and other Bronx stations for the New Haven. I've heard that some of the restrictions from the legacy railroads may have to do with that; I've never been quite sure of that.

And, after all, Game Day service from beyond Stamford also serves Yankee Stadium directly; why not allow it at this point? Crowding? All the trains are crowded at this point.

Finally, to continue the thought of Yankee Stadium service and the MO wye, the writer surprisingly makes no allusions to Hudson service. That's a pretty busy stretch of track; I've never even heard it raised. After all, you can just double back from 125th, although that's not optimal.
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Re: Next Stahp Fahdam (Fordham MTA article)

Postby Ridgefielder » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:51 am

Jeff Smith wrote:I think the writer here is probably not aware of the history between the NYNH&H and NYC service. Originally, the stop was at Woodlawn; it was changed later to Fordham. The NYC obviously didn't want the NH serving inbound passengers on their ROW. Later, CtDOT didn't want to fund operations on Stamford express trains to Fordham according to their service agreement. So if you're going to Fordham and live in Bridgeport, you get to take a whole lot of local trains.

It's not that bad. Off-peak, Fordham is a regular Discharge Inbound-Receive Outbound stop on the Stamford Locals. If you live in Bridgeport you have a train every 30mins to Stamford and a local every 30mins from there in. If you catch one of the :51 semi-express runs inbound you're only 6 stops from Stamford. At rush hour it gets trickier but I still don't think it would require more than 1 transfer to get to Fordham-- so two trains.

As for the Hudson Division- I figure most Fordham students heading that way would rather just take the #12 bus down Fordham Road to the University Heights station. It's only about a mile, and likely much faster than running "around the Horn" through MO anyway.
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Re: Next Stahp Fahdam (Fordham MTA article)

Postby Rockingham Racer » Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:02 pm

There are no commuter trains running around the wye at MO. And Woodlawn is not on the NH Line; it's on the Harlem Line. New Haven Line trains never stopped at Woodlawn because at that point, they were on a "foreign railroad." The last stop for NH Line trains was Mt. Vernon [East] until they decided to have some of the trains stop to discharge at Fordham.

Back in the day, there was one morning Harlem Division local [#538?] that "was not to be delayed" at Woodlawn, and put on track 4: for the Fordham Prep boys trying to get to school on time, or they got detention.
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Re: Next Stahp Fahdam (Fordham MTA article)

Postby Noel Weaver » Thu Oct 22, 2015 4:40 pm

At one time many years ago at least a couple of New Haven Railroad trains stopping at Woodlawn and I have timetables to prove it. I will have some more on this sometime down the road
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Re: Next Stahp Fahdam (Fordham MTA article)

Postby runningwithscalpels » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:04 pm

I hear there is *supposed* to be an interlocking put in between Fordham & Botanical Garden, which when built will allow more upper NHL trains to make Fordham. When that will come to fruition, who knows...I also was told it's not a big priority right now.

Until then you get to do the Stamford transfer unless you're on one of the nary few New Haven expresses that make Fordham. (I regularly take 1991/1591 and it's nice to not have to make that 2nd transfer.)
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Re: Next Stahp Fahdam (Fordham MTA article)

Postby NH2060 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:49 pm

Jeff I think you mean to say "Next stawp Fawdham" . You make it sound more Boston-y :-P
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Re: Next Stahp Fahdam (Fordham MTA article)

Postby Rockingham Racer » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:53 am

Noel Weaver wrote:At one time many years ago at least a couple of New Haven Railroad trains stopping at Woodlawn and I have timetables to prove it. I will have some more on this sometime down the road
Noel Weaver


I'd be interested. I'm going back to the late 60s on the Woodlawn stop question. Was it before or after that time?
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Re: Next Stahp Fahdam (Fordham MTA article)

Postby Noel Weaver » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:03 am

It was long before the 60's. Maybe the 20's or early 30's. Too much going on right now for me dig.
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Re: Next Stahp Fahdam (Fordham MTA article)

Postby Rockingham Racer » Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:17 am

Ah, that explains it. It was around my father's time, then. He was born in 1918.
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Re: Next Stahp Fahdam (Fordham MTA article)

Postby Jeff Smith » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:02 am

RR, I've got a few links on that. There was an 1848 agreement on use of GCT that covered this. It ran until the 1920's. I've also got some older timetables for the NH (NH Lines West) that may show it.

Here's one link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Haven ... agreements
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Re: Next Stahp Fahdam (Fordham MTA article)

Postby Jeff Smith » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:03 am

NH2060 wrote:Jeff I think you mean to say "Next stawp Fawdham" . You make it sound more Boston-y :-P


I was going for an Irish brogue :wink:

Kind of like a Faaaad-ham.
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Re: Next Stahp Fahdam (Fordham MTA article)

Postby Tommy Meehan » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:44 pm

Did New Haven RR suburban trains stop in the Bronx? I'm sure the answer is no they did not -- at least during most of the years between 1900 and 1969 (when the NYNH&H ceased to exist) -- but this keeps coming up. I wrote a while back that I began riding New Haven locals in the GCT-Stamford area in 1962 and none of the trains ever made any Bronx stops. Nor did the public timetables even show any Bronx stops. Below is a scan of a page from an Official Guide showing GCT-Stamford local service in April 1952. You'll note no Bronx stops are listed.

Image

I also recall the message I'm quoting below that was posted here about five years ago.
Noel Weaver wrote:I got this information out of an old New Haven public timetable. In both 1916 and 1920 one train in each direction made the station stop at Woodlawn and from the employee timetables of the period it appears that it was the existing New York Central Harlem Division passenger station at Woodlawn. The public timetable states to receive passengers eastbound and to discharge passenger westbound. The employee timetable simply lists it as an "S" stop.
My oldest New York Central Electric Division timetable dates to 1933 and by then the Woodlawn stop was no longer made by any New Haven Railroad trains as so listed also in the New Haven employee timetables of the period.
Noel Weaver


There are also a number of Harlem Division (or Electric Division) employee timetables available on-line on the Canada Southern website. I haven't looked at every single one but the ones I have looked at don't show any NH trains stopping at Bronx stops. I have scans of a 1908 ETT that also does not show any NH trains stopping in the Bronx .
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