Port Jervis Potential Yard Locations

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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Postby SecaucusJunction » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:51 pm

Actually two of the three biggest stops on the line are west of the viaduct. Only Harriman is east. Still doesn't mean it will ever be double tracked. NJT has a single track bridge on the main line with far more trains on the route and they work through just fine.
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Postby pnaw10 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:02 pm

EuroStar wrote:
SecaucusJunction wrote:As far as I know, the midpoint yard was included in the funding for MTA 2015-2019 capital projects. As far as location, I've heard of locations from Harriman to Middletown.


You are right. It was in there, but I am still very puzzled why. It is not as if they need to run another 4-6 daily round trips -- the demand is not there. I also cannot imagine that cutting some of the existing trips short and not sending them to Port Jervis saves operationally enough money to justify the cost of yard. All that might change with Gateway, but that is 20 years away, so why do this now?


Is it possible that MTA may have added it to the plan at the request or urging of NJTransit? I am not as familiar with the WOH lines but just wondering if maybe there could be some interstate negotiating/politics at play... "you agree to do this, and we'll agree to do that" -- steps that both agencies would need to take to reach some long-term common goal. Since NJT runs the line for MNR, it's my guess that MNR wouldn't bother building a yard unless NJT requested it, and had a good reason to back-up that request.

Has anyone looked to see if NJT has any major projects in the works that could benefit MNR's WOH service?
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Postby EuroStar » Wed Mar 23, 2016 8:58 am

SecaucusJunction wrote:NJT has a single track bridge on the main line with far more trains on the route and they work through just fine.

That would be the bridge over the Hackensack River. It is in a good shape. As long as they paint it and do minor preventive maintenance when needed it will last at least another 200 years. It is a movable bridge(read "expensive"), so do not expect to see it replaced in your lifetime unless a boat or a train wrecks it badly.

pnaw10 wrote:Is it possible that MTA may have added it to the plan at the request or urging of NJTransit? I am not as familiar with the WOH lines but just wondering if maybe there could be some interstate negotiating/politics at play... "you agree to do this, and we'll agree to do that" -- steps that both agencies would need to take to reach some long-term common goal. Since NJT runs the line for MNR, it's my guess that MNR wouldn't bother building a yard unless NJT requested it, and had a good reason to back-up that request.

Has anyone looked to see if NJT has any major projects in the works that could benefit MNR's WOH service?


The yard is in the capital plan because Metro-North wants it, not because NJT cares or wants to provide better service. To some extent it is a political payback so that Orange County complains less about the taxes they pay to the MTA.

There are no projects in NJT land that will improve WOH service in the foreseeable future. They cannot even build a parking lot for the Westmont Station after the developer paid for the station itself(mostly, once again it is all political football who covers how much of the costs). So the station is currently closed and inaccessible. That by itself is quite pathetic - they have a station for which they are at the very least paying for electricity to light it up and yet it will be at least another year before they get a single dollar of revenue from it(I hope I am wrong and it is sooner than that).

The only viable project is the Secaucus Loop, but that is in 20 years at best and that would be paid mostly by outside money: the Feds, the Port Authority, maybe the state will chip in some. Other than that NJT is busy spending its capital money on operations. It has been more than 5 years since they started allocating money in the capital budget for high level platforms at Lyndhurst (and Perth Amboy) - there is not a single shovel in the ground yet. I suspect the major reason is that the money was spent on other items, most likely operations as Christie reduced significantly the funds for NJT from the budget.

On average you should probably expect the NJT portion of the tracks for WOH service to deteriorate as deferred track maintenance leads to speed restrictions.
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Postby CentralValleyRail » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:40 pm

https://pedestrianobservations.files.wo ... ership.pdf

Haven't found anything more dated...

While Sailsbury Mills is technically West of the Viaduct you don't have to double track for one station beyond that. Run your trains out of CB Hall and you have 10 minutes before you hit double tracking after Moodna. Can't see a real issue with that. It's not like they will be running service in both directions every 20 minutes... Look at Pascack Valley Line there are gaps that wide in their sidings. Hackensack to Pearl River comes to mind.
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Postby Jeff Smith » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:39 am

http://www.recordonline.com/article/201 ... /160329376

Metro-North names potential spots for midpoint yard

STEWART AIRPORT – Metro-North Railroad has identified three potential locations for the midpoint yard and passing sidings that it wants to build to support more frequent service on the Port Jervis line’s single track.

Speaking to the Stewart Airport Commission Tuesday, Elisa Van der Linde, assistant director of long-range planning at Metro-North, said the locations are in the general vicinity of the railroad’s stations in Harriman, Salisbury Mills and Campbell Hall.

The number of sidings will depend on which site is chosen to augment train storage at the Port Jervis and Hoboken yards – 95 miles apart – but any of the combinations will allow the bi-directional travel and shorter turn-around times necessary to advance Metro-North’s service goals.

Bill Wheeler, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s director of planning, and Van der Linde told the commission that the railroad hasn’t abandoned its effort to identify and preserve a possible route for a spur between the airport and the Port Jervis line, and has only refocused priorities in the west-of-Hudson access study that it began in 2008.
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Postby NH2060 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:47 am

Nice to see they're not even remotely close to giving up on the PJ Line in spite of the lower post-Irene ridership.

But forget about the yard, what about the mention of the prospect of replacing the Moodna Viaduct with a new bridge? That would really be something ;-)
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Postby SecaucusJunction » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:00 pm

Ridership has grown again on the line. Last year was very close to a record year (right behind 2008) on the line. The new midday train will probably set the record in 2016.
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Postby EuroStar » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:32 am

Ridership is up 2% for the 2015 year vs. 2014 (December 2015 was down though, cheap gas?). You can find the numbers and a lot of other fascinating information http://web.mta.info/mta/news/books/pdf/160222_0830_MNR_LIRR.pdf. With the cheap gas I would not bet on the ridership beating the 2008 record this year though. Maybe in another 2-3 years.

Not having great understanding of the operations, I would venture to say that Harriman seems too far south for the yard. There are no trains that currently terminate there, nor are there likely to be any such trains in the future given where the ridership is. To me the other two seems somewhat better located and probably more useful for mid-line turns. Given the title of this thread one wonders where the site close to Campbell Hall is...

As for the viaducts, I do not expect to see them replaced during our lifetime as long as they perform the necessary maintenance to keep them from rusting away -- the traffic is light enough that the wear and tear on them is minimal.
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Postby TDowling » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:32 am

Eurostar wrote: given the title of this thread one wonders where the site close to Campbell Hall is?

I was referring to the ns yard a little west of the station.
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Re: potential yard at Campbell Hall?

Postby SecaucusJunction » Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:44 am

That is an active freight yard operated by M&NJ/East Penn. An MTA yard would have to be built in another location. Sounds like the new service will miss Middletown though... A big station on the line.

I believe at one time, there was talk about building a short extension from Salisbury Mills to Newburgh and having a yard there. The idea made a lot of sense but I'm sure was cost prohibitive.
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Re: Port Jervis Potential Yard Locations

Postby TDowling » Fri May 27, 2016 11:01 pm

I like the prospect of a new moodna bridge. The current one is over a century old and the so called improvements the mta implemented seem nothing more than a sand blast and a paint job.

As for Stewart airport short line already provides service there. Besides is it really necessary to spend money to have rail access to an airport with very few direct flights?

Out of curiosity how much freight is moved on the graham line versus the old Lehigh and hudson line? Perhaps east penn should lease the tracks in campbell hall to mnr and utilize the yard in grey court junction.
Last edited by TDowling on Fri May 27, 2016 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Port Jervis Potential Yard Locations

Postby SecaucusJunction » Fri May 27, 2016 11:05 pm

Another Port Authority debacle. They took over that airport probably close to 10 years ago with intentions of making it the regions 4th major airport. Now there are probably fewer flights than there were back then
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Re: Port Jervis Potential Yard Locations

Postby TDowling » Fri May 27, 2016 11:07 pm

Exactly. And short line operates out of the port authority so why involve the mta?
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Re: Port Jervis Potential Yard Locations

Postby Jeff Smith » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:43 pm

Speaking of PJ and yards....: Record Online

Metro-North to unveil plans for new rail yard, sidings in region

GOSHEN - After more than four years of silence, Metro-North Railroad is poised to spell out the specifics of its plan to build the midpoint yard and passing sidings necessary to boost train service on the Port Jervis line.

The railroad, which began its West of Hudson Regional Transit Access Study in 2008, will hold an open house about the plan from 4 to 8 p.m. on Feb. 15 at the Harness Racing Museum in Goshen. The last open house was held in 2012.
...
Elisa Van der Linde, Metro-North's assistant director of long-range planning, has previously identified the potential sites for the yard as being in the general vicinity of the railroad's stations in Harriman, Salisbury Mills and Campbell Hall.

As of now, with yards in Port Jervis and Hoboken, N.J., 95 miles apart and few sidings, the rail line is the equivalent of a one-way street. Trains can't travel in both directions at the same time and they can't turn around until they reach a yard.

Neuhaus said Metro-North put the cost at more than $150 million in 2012 dollars and predicted construction would take seven years to complete.
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Re: Port Jervis Potential Yard Locations

Postby Jeff Smith » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:45 pm

http://www.mta.info/news/2017/02/01/met ... astructure

Public agency exception:
2/1/17
MTA Metro-North Railroad has announced that it will hold an Open House in Goshen, N.Y., on February 15 to share details on a proposal for capital improvements that will enable enhanced train service on the Port Jervis Line.

The Open House will be held at the Harness Racing Museum, 240 Main Street in Goshen, from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. Metro-North staff will be available to explain Metro-North’s proposal and answer questions. Staff will make presentations at 5 p.m. and 7 p.m. Each presentation will be followed by an opportunity for dialogue between the public and railroad officials, who will be seeking input on the proposal.

After an extensive study to find ways to improve transit mobility and accessibility between Orange County and New York City, Metro-North identified locations along the Port Jervis Line to build passing sidings for trains as well as a new train yard mid-way along the line, and details of those proposed investments will be the subject of the Open House.

The Port Jervis Line is primarily a single track railroad for 65 miles in New York State between Sloatsburg and Port Jervis. This means it operates primarily as a “one-way street,” with limited opportunity for trains to pass each other along the Line. The line’s sole passenger train yard is located in Port Jervis, 95 miles from the Hoboken Terminal in New Jersey, meaning Metro-North has no available yard between these points for storing and servicing trains. These constraints limit the number of trains Metro-North can operate during the peak, off-peak and reverse peak periods.

The Port Jervis Line currently carries 10 trains to Hoboken between 3:50 a.m. and 1 p.m., but just two trains are able to operate in the reverse direction during this time. After 1 p.m., the reverse dynamic is in place, with 11 Orange County-bound trains operating between 1 p.m. and 3:10 a.m. and just three trains operating in the reverse direction. The addition of a mid-point yard and passing sidings is envisioned to allow for more frequent peak and off-peak service, and will also introduce reverse commute service.

The capital improvements are expected to allow Orange and Rockland County residents to further benefit from longer term capital projects, such as a future trans-Hudson crossing, which could provide the opportunity for a future one-seat ride to New York City and improved transit connections to Stewart Airport.
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