Safety vs on time

Discussion relating to the operations of MTA MetroNorth Railroad including west of Hudson operations and discussion of CtDOT sponsored rail operations such as Shore Line East and the Springfield to New Haven Hartford Line

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Noel Weaver
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Safety vs on time

Post by Noel Weaver » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:49 pm

Word is out that Metro-North is going to stress safety rather than on time as number one priority. All i can say is it is ABOUT TIME!, this has been a problem with Metro-North for probably all or most of its 30 plus years of operation. Here is a link to the article in the Hartford paper.

http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut ... ?track=rss

Noel Weaver

freightguy
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Re: Safety vs on time

Post by freightguy » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:22 am

metro North is going to stress safety rather than on time as number one priority. All i can say is it is ABOUT TIME!, this has been a problem with Metro-North for probably all or most of its 30 plus years of operation

I honestly feel this a major difference between LIRR AND MNRR. Safety in some ways was sacrificed for efficiency which eventually catches up to you. In my opinion this has trickled down to the rules and the training departments of Metro North. Some may disagree but certain draconian rules stay in play on the LIRR no doubt add to the safety of the system. Safety being the key word.
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Clean Cab
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Re: Safety vs on time

Post by Clean Cab » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:31 am

That is a positive step. I have long felt that MN cared way too much about their on time performance. However I do not feel that they sacrificed safety. I think the only big mistake they made was not paying enough attention to people in the field that were pointing out small things that could become a problem.
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kitn1mcc
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Re: Safety vs on time

Post by kitn1mcc » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:10 pm

but per jumbo and his crew he would rather have on time fast trains
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DutchRailnut
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Re: Safety vs on time

Post by DutchRailnut » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:21 pm

That would be Jimbo, not Jumbo.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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runningwithscalpels
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Re: Safety vs on time

Post by runningwithscalpels » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:45 pm

You can use both interchangeably *snort*

Somehow I suspect his Twitter lynch mob will forever have something to whine about.
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Lincoln78
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Re: Safety vs on time

Post by Lincoln78 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:12 pm

Metro-North has a safety problem. I would have said that before Monday's tragic mishap.

I don't see a connection between an emphasis of being on time and any of the mishaps. I will defer to more experienced members.

Not repairing the track in Bridgeport was in hindsight a bad call. Not sure what the root cause of that bad call- doubtful that the approving layers thought "lets not do this as it will slow us down".

Spuyten Duyvil was not caused by pressure to be on time, at least based on current information. Engineer was channeling Casey Jones.

Trackside accidents tend to be caused by human error. I haven't seen indications of cutting corners that would suggest pressure to meet schedules.

Metro-North's first responsibility to its employees and customers is to provide a safe environment. They are not doing that well. Having a safe environment is a minimal expectation.

People expect the trains to run on time. Management and everybody who works for Metro North cannot lose that focus. I am pained that anybody thinks it is an "either/or" proposition.

Noel Weaver
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Re: Safety vs on time

Post by Noel Weaver » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:55 pm

Lincoln78 wrote:Metro-North has a safety problem. I would have said that before Monday's tragic mishap.

I don't see a connection between an emphasis of being on time and any of the mishaps. I will defer to more experienced members.

Not repairing the track in Bridgeport was in hindsight a bad call. Not sure what the root cause of that bad call- doubtful that the approving layers thought "lets not do this as it will slow us down".

Spuyten Duyvil was not caused by pressure to be on time, at least based on current information. Engineer was channeling Casey Jones.

Trackside accidents tend to be caused by human error. I haven't seen indications of cutting corners that would suggest pressure to meet schedules.

Metro-North's first responsibility to its employees and customers is to provide a safe environment. They are not doing that well. Having a safe environment is a minimal expectation.

People expect the trains to run on time. Management and everybody who works for Metro North cannot lose that focus. I am pained that anybody thinks it is an "either/or" proposition.


What is your background with Metro-North that you base these statements on?
Noel Weaver

BenH
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Re: Safety vs on time

Post by BenH » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:24 am

The New York Times published this story on their web site and on page A1 of the New York edition of today's print edition:

"Report Finds Punctuality Trumps Safety at Metro-North"
http://nyti.ms/1qBEZJc
3/14/2014

Looks like the formal report on "Operation Deep Dive" will be released by the FRA today.

::

And here's another notable news report to read, while we wait for the report to be published:

"Fed report: Metro-North endangered public"
http://www.ctpost.com/local/article/Fed-report-Metro-North-endangered-public-5317233.php
The Connecticut Post
3/14/2014
Last edited by BenH on Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:36 am, edited 4 times in total.

Gilbert B Norman
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Re: Safety vs on time

Post by Gilbert B Norman » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:30 am

Mr. Ben H, it's 'not as bad in the print National Edition; the the article appears on Page A18; but as you note there it is as lead article Page 1 Column 6 of the Late Edition circulated in the New York area.
Last edited by Gilbert B Norman on Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

BenH
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Re: Safety vs on time

Post by BenH » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:34 am

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Ben H, it appears that the article is getting more 'play' at Grey Lady's website than in her print editions; the Chicago area National Edition places the article on Page A18; the City Edition has such on Page

That would seem to make sense, since Metro-North only operates in the NY metro area. I've updated my early posting to reflect this point.

BenH
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Re: Safety vs on time

Post by BenH » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:02 am

And now here is the report:

Operation Deep Dive
Metro-North Commuter Railroad Safety Assessment
http://www.fra.dot.gov/Elib/Document/3586
Federal Railroad Administration
1.9 MB, 28 pages
3/14/2014

Noel Weaver
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Re: Safety vs on time

Post by Noel Weaver » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:05 am

Here is a link to the article in the New York Times. I believe it is just as bad as reported and maybe even worse. Good operating people were passed by for promotion by people who meant well but just did not have the railroad operating experience to effectively and safely run a railroad and that DOES NOT WORK. I think it might get better in time but I also think it might well get worse before it actually gets better although I hope I am wrong about that part. It is all very sad to me because in 1983 when Metro-North first got their start they inherited some very good people from Conrail at all levels from top management right on down. I could cite several examples of unsafe practices from my days in the mid 1980's, I'll bet some of them are still there today too. I will say that I liked running Metro-North trains but unfortunately safety took second or maybe even third fiddle to other things and this does not work in the railroad industry especially in operations where passengers are involved.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/14/nyreg ... .html?_r=0

Noel Weaver

Clean Cab
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Re: Safety vs on time

Post by Clean Cab » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:12 pm

The FRA's report is a stinging rebuke of MN's practices. The report stops just short of calling MN management *ssh*les.
Last edited by Clean Cab on Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DutchRailnut
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Re: Safety vs on time

Post by DutchRailnut » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:38 pm

Most of blame is with MTA, they passed over Joseph Guiletti years ago when they decided on Pope Howard.
Pope Permut did more damage to MNCR, than what will ever be released. He stated years ago in Conductors room that Safety was NOT most important.
Revenue is, he would not allow certain items in Chiefs log, so every item needed approval by him, before it went in.
He was one pushing for more trains, over-extending the railroad, the track capacity, lack of safety, lack of track time for maintenance, etc.
Last edited by DutchRailnut on Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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