Green line single door delays

Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

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Green line single door delays

Postby jumbotusk » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:10 pm

Does anyone have an idea of how much greenline delay is caused by the fact that in the morning rush (and all the time) they only open the front door of each car?

Some stops require sitting there for 2-3 traffic light cycles just to board everyone. Some days nice drivers open all the doors.

Other days, when its packed up front, and theres space in back, passengers ask the driver to open the back doors, even going so far as to show them their pass... The driver says "I cant open those doors". Why?

Sure they can! They seem to open fine at Kenmore, Hynes, Copley, Arlington, Boylston, and even both sets at Park Street! The drivers need to be less surly, and more problem-solvery.

Any idea of how much delay could be eliminated under each of the following scenarios occur?

a) All doors open inbound
b) Show and go at every stop
c) Replace surly drivers with helper monkeys
d) Replace helper monkeys driving trains to a giant moving walkway down Comm Ave and Beacon Street.

Also, why don't they have Show and GO at every stop!? Clearly, they think its acceptable to let passholders enter from the rear. And they are willing to accept that lost fare in the name of efficiency should others sneak by... so why not every stop?

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Postby MBTA1 » Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:33 pm

I think I understood what you are trying to say, and this is my answer...

The MBTA is poor! They can not afford to loose that many fares. There is a show and go program I believe in the rush hour times on the D Line and E Line (I think its on the other two but I'm not sure). Also not everybody is respectful of a poor transit authority. They see two open doors in the back and they know that they will not pay so they'd get on free causeing the MBTA to become more poor.

Also, The driver/train can physically open the doors at those stops, they are not enabled or broken what s/he means is that their bosses tell them that since there are no fare collectors at those stations (unlike Boylston, Park Street, Kenmore, Hynes, Arlington, Copley ect.) they (the drivers) become fare collectors and use the fare boxes (located at the fronts of the vehicles).

Hope that was helpful! :wink:
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Postby BC Eagle » Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:07 pm

Show and go during the morning commute does exist at the busier stops along the B-Line, i.e. Washington St., Harvard Ave, Packard's Corner, etc. I'm pretty sure it exists on the C-Line too, but I'm not positive. I'm relatively sure the T already loses a decent amount of money on this program already. I know someone who used to hold up any card he had when he was commuting, and was never stopped.

As for opening all of the doors, from my experience it's only done when the train is packed AND there is an excessive amount of people waiting on the platform. Even when this is done, it appears to be at the driver's discretion. Some drivers refuse to do it, and will wait on the platform for 10 minutes, while others just want to keep the train moving.

Also, from my observation, Kenmore to Boston College on the B-Line generally takes about 10 minutes less time going outbound with the opening of all doors.
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Postby typesix » Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:56 pm

Operators must ask for permission from dispatch to open the other doors, have heard operators request it and been denied unless farebox is full.
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Postby Robert Paniagua » Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:41 am

Yes, for obvious reasons, they need permission to do so. But in past Green Line rides, I've actually seen Green Line operators open ALL doors without going through Central Control. I wonder what punishent they get for failing to notify Central Control is.
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Postby CRail » Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:16 am

Its not really a blatent offence. Whos going to notice a few extra people and a short fair box? I would imagine unless the driver was unlucky enough to have an inspector hiding out at the station, s/he would be fine.

hey what if they put turnstiles on the stairs inside the doors! :-D
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Postby octr202 » Fri Jan 07, 2005 8:33 am

Sometimes I wonder, particularly on the Kenmore-Packards Corner stretch, just how many more "tweaks" are possible to keep the Green Line moving. The Show & Go is clearly just that -- another stopgap measure to keep the system functioning. AFC is supposed to be the great cure-all for our problems, but if it still relies on a farebox above ground, I think it might actually slow the process down. Recently, in Chicago, I got to see the CTA's "full feature" fareboxes in action on their buses, and while they worked well, they are slow. Buses would often sit for 45-60 seconds to board a half a dozen passengers, as they feed their dollars into the farebox, wait for transfer cards to print out, etc. The one bright spot was the "Chicago card" Smart card that just had to be touched to the farebox -- but relatively few people seemed to be using these. If the Charlie Card & Ticket system is anything like this, we won't be seeing much improvement on the Green Line (or busy bus routes too) in terms of speeding boardings.

Providing a real fix for the Green Line will probably involve some signifigant capital spending to redesign the route in some way. Obviously, the most ideal would have been for the subway to extend further than Kenmore Square, but we all know that will never happen. Perhaps a "quasi-subway" could be designed. Depress the tracks under large intersections, and build platforms below street level, where you could even have turnstyles to allow off-train fare collection. This would get the trains out of major intersections, provide larger platforms with shelters, and improve fare collection rates and boarding times. Of course, it might end up costing as much as just extending the subway anyways.
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Postby Pete » Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:27 am

Proof-of-payment (POP) fare collection on the Green Line would have solved this problem outright. Systems around the world do it this way.

People in the decision process I talked to essentially told me that sounded too hard.
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Postby efin98 » Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:38 pm

Pete wrote:Proof-of-payment (POP) fare collection on the Green Line would have solved this problem outright. Systems around the world do it this way.

People in the decision process I talked to essentially told me that sounded too hard.


Doesn't work on lines that are croweded, let alone lines like the Green Line that have people squished up against the doors in the middle of the run.
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Postby Ron Newman » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:52 pm

Proof-of-purchase works fine in Amsterdam, and that's at least as crowded a system as Boston's.
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Postby jumbotusk » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:30 pm

FYI - Be careful what you say on this board. The moderator can enforce the rules and issue a WARNING if you are bad.

That being said, the green line is beyond repair. Its a 1920s era system that can't quite cut it much past 1956.

Can I get a show of support here? I've been yelled at alot lately on this board. Stand up for your right to talk about the T!


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Postby Pete » Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:31 pm

St. Louis, San Diego, New Jersey... none of these could work if too crowded?
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Postby ST214 » Fri Jan 07, 2005 10:40 pm

Hey, CTA is great. If the farebox is full or broken, you get a free ride!!!!
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Postby efin98 » Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:35 am

Pete wrote:St. Louis, San Diego, New Jersey... none of these could work if too crowded?


No. Not with the Green Line's setup.
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