A Government Center question

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A Government Center question

Postby TrainManTy » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:28 am

Hi all --

Someone asked me this recently and I struggled with the 3D visualization of it before realizing I couldn't figure it out and had to ask for help.

Is there any correlation between the Green Line and Blue Line levels of Government Center? They both have a similar wedge shape and although I haven't been down to the Blue Line platforms in years, seem to be of a similar size. Is this correlation accurate or is there another reason why the Blue Line platform is wedge-shaped and not rectangular?

Thanks!
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Re: A Government Center question

Postby MBTA3247 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:15 am

There's no correlation that I'm aware of. The outbound end of the Blue Line platform starts just northwest of the eastbound Green Line track, with the other end being somewhere under Cambridge Street northwest of the westbound Green Line track. To simplify things a bit, the Blue Line platform is roughly perpendicular to the eastbound Green Line platform. Any relationship it has with the westbound Green Line platform is due to both having to curve around the foundations of the Center Plaza building.
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Re: A Government Center question

Postby Disney Guy » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:27 am

Way back when Government Center station was built, Tremont Row, which both the Green Line outbound platform and Blue Line platform are directly under, was narrower at the Hanover St./Cambridge St. end (towards Bowdoin) compared with the Court St./Cornhill St. end (where the GL eastbound track runs).
Last edited by Disney Guy on Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A Government Center question

Postby BostonUrbEx » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:32 am

Rough sketch:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6230/633 ... 7f20_o.png

I fudged it up a little. The NW corner of the Green Line platform should be much closer to the N end of the Blue Line platform. Other than that, this is the best I can visualize it
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Re: A Government Center question

Postby Disney Guy » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:47 am

More like this:

http://www.cockam.com/pix3/scollay2.jpg

The north end of the station (westbound track and Brattle Loop entrance) is unchanged from 100+ years ago.
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Re: A Government Center question

Postby BostonUrbEx » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:00 am

I believe it runs under what used to be Hanover, no? So it would be abutting immediately on the south side of those trees near the JFK building, if it did run under Hanover.
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Re: A Government Center question

Postby Disney Guy » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:09 am

The Green Line came around from the original Hanover St. into Govt. Center station. The Blue Line came straight from Cambridge St.
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Re: A Government Center question

Postby tenraek » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:39 pm

Hello All,

I'm the person who asked the question to TrainGuyTy.

Here's my attempt using the original blue print of the then Scollay Square station, trying to show the modifications when it was turned into G.C. :

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-BsIS ... GC-Now.jpg

To rephrase my question: Does the blue line tracks/platform match the original part of the green line platform above (As I've illustrated in my sketch), or at least on the western wall the same for both platforms for that straight section?

The last time I was there a few months ago (which was before I became curious about this) I remember coming up the escalators and coming out next to the west bound green line tracks. I also know there's a staircase too but I can't remember how it's aligned
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Re: A Government Center question

Postby TrainManTy » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:05 pm

Thanks all! That's exactly what I was looking for.
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Re: A Government Center question

Postby BostonUrbEx » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:14 pm

Disney Guy wrote:More like this:

http://www.cockam.com/pix3/scollay2.jpg

The north end of the station (westbound track and Brattle Loop entrance) is unchanged from 100+ years ago.


I just noticed now that your map shows the Green Line eastbound/northbound swinging out to the south side of City Hall. It may have done that pre-GC, when Adams Sq was still about, but it's definitely not like that now.

Also; here is what the MBTA data says, according to the map in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=65&t=85406 :

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6238/633 ... 66c7_o.jpg
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Re: A Government Center question

Postby The EGE » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:44 am

Well, this seems to be the most recent Gov't Center thread. (Sery, feel free to move this if I'm wrong.)

The new transportation bill included $2B for Massachusetts. A lot is road projects - 128 work and smaller projects on the other interstates - but included is funds for the Government Center rebuild.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massac ... ocal_Links

Relevant quote:

Those projects include replace­ment of elevated portions of Route 128 in Needham and Wellesley, resurfacing of Route 6 in Sandwich and Bourne, and reconstruction of Government Center Station, a dated but vital MBTA stop largely inaccessible to people with disabilities.


I mostly like what the current plans look like. With the exception of raising the Green Line platform a tad and dropping elevators, they look to leave the historic parts of the station the same. I'm curious if they'll seek to put better Brattle Loop access in place - when the GLX comes into place, having the opportunity to turn cars back to the northside might be useful.

That said, though: what the hell are they doing with the headhouse? Glass and steel might work for the GLX stations, but it's the wrong look here. However, it can't be worse than City Hall...
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Re: A Government Center question

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:38 pm

The EGE wrote:Well, this seems to be the most recent Gov't Center thread. (Sery, feel free to move this if I'm wrong.)

The new transportation bill included $2B for Massachusetts. A lot is road projects - 128 work and smaller projects on the other interstates - but included is funds for the Government Center rebuild.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massac ... ocal_Links

Relevant quote:

Those projects include replace­ment of elevated portions of Route 128 in Needham and Wellesley, resurfacing of Route 6 in Sandwich and Bourne, and reconstruction of Government Center Station, a dated but vital MBTA stop largely inaccessible to people with disabilities.


I mostly like what the current plans look like. With the exception of raising the Green Line platform a tad and dropping elevators, they look to leave the historic parts of the station the same. I'm curious if they'll seek to put better Brattle Loop access in place - when the GLX comes into place, having the opportunity to turn cars back to the northside might be useful.

That said, though: what the hell are they doing with the headhouse? Glass and steel might work for the GLX stations, but it's the wrong look here. However, it can't be worse than City Hall...


The cinderblock wall is supposed to be coming down between the inbound track and the loop track, so it's going to open up a lot of space. Which is good because inbound platform can get a little cramped at crush-load. Also more room for vendors to set up shop because the loop platform itself is pretty spacious.

As for increased usage, once GLX opens they're going to have to do some greater amount of short-turning there. Running the D end-to-end Riverside to Route 16 is not going to be all-hours feasible, so for bulking up service at rush hour I imagine there's going to have to be some subset of Brattle Loop short-turns. And a number of run-as-directeds turning there when D's are delayed.
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Re: A Government Center question

Postby obienick » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:20 pm

How will running the D Riverside--Medford not be feasible? By the time the service starts, the Type 9's will be operating to provided the needed capacity for the headways. It's much better to extend the D as it is entirely segregated. No moronic traffic or street running to cause delays. And the D stops are far apart on the surface to allow faster running times than with the B or C.
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Re: A Government Center question

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:45 pm

obienick wrote:How will running the D Riverside--Medford not be feasible? By the time the service starts, the Type 9's will be operating to provided the needed capacity for the headways. It's much better to extend the D as it is entirely segregated. No moronic traffic or street running to cause delays. And the D stops are far apart on the surface to allow faster running times than with the B or C.


I never said it wouldn't be feasible. I'm saying at crush load it'll need supplemental service and run-as-directeds to load balance delays on any of the branches that may screw up D headways. It will not be used full-time. I would expect that at 8:30am and 5:00pm you probably are gonna see some Brattle Loopage with extras designed to keep things nice and flush.
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Re: A Government Center question

Postby The EGE » Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:40 pm

Mods: you may wish to merge this topic with this topic.

I'm quite interested to see the old Brattle loop platform. I've caught glimpses from southbound trains, but otherwise all I've seen is this image from the 1898 BTC report:

Image

(source: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... form_2.png )

The Brattle Loop platform is on the left.

As you can see, there once were stairs and turnstiles on the platform. I'm curious if they'll reopen it as an entrance, or if Brattle Loop is too valuable as storage space.
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