Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby deathtopumpkins » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:01 am

I'm not sure what the issue is with this station being in Zone 1. Based on distance, I'd say it could go either way, but the station is intended for suburban commuters coming in to the New Balance development. Placing it in Zone 1 makes the cost of a pass a lot more enticing, and will likely lure more people onto the train instead of the Pike. Even if it was Zone 1A, very few Brighton residents would use it - the limited schedules, lack of free transfers, and fact that peak hour trains will be standing room only, means that it is still going to make more sense to take the bus to the Green Line, as is presently done. The B line is only half a mile to the south.
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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby The EGE » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:11 am

There was a lot of excitement among commuters in Allston-Brighton at the possibility of a commuter rail station. That was true even after the station was placed at Everett Street (best for New Balance) rather than Cambridge Street (the neighborhood's preferred location). Now they're being told "This station is not for you. It's for suburban commuters only. Stay on your buses." What a slap in the face to Allston-Brighton.
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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby saulblum » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:10 am

deathtopumpkins wrote:Even if it was Zone 1A, very few Brighton residents would use it - the limited schedules, lack of free transfers, and fact that peak hour trains will be standing room only, means that it is still going to make more sense to take the bus to the Green Line, as is presently done. The B line is only half a mile to the south.

You could buy a zone 1A monthly pass for the same price as your current subway pass, so the lack of transfers is moot. And the 57 and B aren't already standing room only at rush hour?

I know I'd be pissed off if I lived in the area and worked by South Station or Back Bay and could not take advantage of a 10-minute commute vs. the interminable 57 or B.

And if the Framingham line is already standing room only by Newton, and the schedule is limited, that doesn't seem like much of an incentive for commuters from Framingham to switch from the Pike to the train.
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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby saulblum » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:11 am

Allegedly the new station will be in zone 1A.

http://www.universalhub.com/2017/whoops ... n-commuter
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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby Rbts Stn » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:49 am

Insert Emily Litella "Never Mind" [HERE].

I guess the Zone 1 plan pissed off the wrong people?
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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby The EGE » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:54 am

If the MBTA was clever, they would give the station a special designation as both Zone 1 and 1A (similar to how London does zones). That would give cheap interzone fares for suburban commuters and cheap 1A fares from Allston-Brighton commuters, and make everyone happy.
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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby BandA » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:03 pm

Let's put Newtonville in zone 1A too. It's less distance from Boston than Riverside. And lets change Waltham too.
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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby deathtopumpkins » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:09 pm

saulblum wrote:You could buy a zone 1A monthly pass for the same price as your current subway pass, so the lack of transfers is moot. And the 57 and B aren't already standing room only at rush hour?


They are, but they're a lot more frequent. If you have to let one B train pass you by because it's too crowded, there will be another in 5 minutes. Boston Landing will only be served every ~30 minutes during peak hours.

And if the Framingham line is already standing room only by Newton, and the schedule is limited, that doesn't seem like much of an incentive for commuters from Framingham to switch from the Pike to the train.


Commuters from Framingham don't have frequent bus and light rail lines as alternatives. And Boston Landing will only be served by Framingham short-turns, so so what if it's SRO by Newton? The majority of commuters will be boarding west of there. The Newton stop don't exactly make up the majority of the line's patronage.


While I did think 1 made more sense than 1A, I like the EGE's idea of making it both. In fact I'd like to see all the zones changed like that (except maybe zones that only have 1 station in them.
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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby dbperry » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:17 pm

The only thing I'll add to the discussion is that I think it was going to be grossly unfair for a worker at Boston Landing to get a huge discount vs. those of us working at Yawkey, BB, or SS.

Example:
monthly passes:
Zone 5 to Zone 1A (SS, BB, Yawkey): $291.50
Zone 5 to Zone 1: (BL): $148

Or how about this comparison:
Single ride:
Zone 8 (Worcester) to Zone 1 (BL): $6.00
Zone 1 (BL) to Zone 1A: $6.25

None of that makes any sense. I'm much more comfortable with Boston Landing as Zone 1A.
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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby CRail » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:52 pm

BandA wrote:Here's a suggested rate structure...


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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby leviramsey » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:37 am

Rbts Stn wrote:Insert Emily Litella "Never Mind" [HERE].

I guess the Zone 1 plan pissed off the wrong people?


My guesses (not mutually exclusive by any means):

* they realized that Boston Landing would shift peak crowding to west of the 1/1A boundary (i.e. it's leaving money on the table not having it in 1A)
* New Balance said "the residential development is being sold based on ease of access to BBY/BOS, make it 1A now"
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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby leviramsey » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:42 am

dbperry wrote:The only thing I'll add to the discussion is that I think it was going to be grossly unfair for a worker at Boston Landing to get a huge discount vs. those of us working at Yawkey, BB, or SS.

Example:
monthly passes:
Zone 5 to Zone 1A (SS, BB, Yawkey): $291.50
Zone 5 to Zone 1: (BL): $148

Or how about this comparison:
Single ride:
Zone 8 (Worcester) to Zone 1 (BL): $6.00
Zone 1 (BL) to Zone 1A: $6.25

None of that makes any sense. I'm much more comfortable with Boston Landing as Zone 1A.


It makes perfect sense in a number of dimensions.

First, for the marginal commuter rail rider (remember: it's what happens at the margins that matters...), who could choose to drive in, the largest part of the value is from not sitting in traffic: the fares on the Framingham/Worcester line therefore should roughly be set such that the fare per mile roughly increases as Pike congestion increases. The same reasoning ultimately leads to the conclusion that the off-peak fares should be generally cut dramatically.

Second, there's basically $0.00 difference in cost between a seat that's occupied from BOS to Worcester and a seat that's occupied from BOS to Newtonville and vacant the rest of the way. The revenue maximizing approach then is to charge a large proportion of the end-to-end fare in the segment where the trains are most crowded (i.e. for inbounds the point after which the number of passengers getting off exceeds the number getting on) and make travel that doesn't cross that segment dramatically "discounted". Every dollar collected on trips that don't cross that point of maximum crowding is basically pure profit for the T (because it's selling something that's already been or will be paid for).

The zone map crudely embodies this. It's almost certainly suboptimal and in general 1A should be extended outward as "downtown" Boston extends further out (and there should be more integration with the bus and subway/light rail network to move more of that ridership to a mode which can better handle moving thousands of people downtown per hour) into areas that were suburbs (in the sense that more people commuted from there than to there) decades ago. Maybe Pike traffic justifies moving the 1A boundary to Auburndale while keeping the Wellesleys in Zone 3. Maybe there will be more people boarding inbound/deboarding outbound than boarding outbound/deboarding inbound at Boston Landing (which would make a strong case for moving Boston Landing to zone 1).
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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby jamesinclair » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:50 pm

The EGE wrote:If the MBTA was clever, they would give the station a special designation as both Zone 1 and 1A (similar to how London does zones). That would give cheap interzone fares for suburban commuters and cheap 1A fares from Allston-Brighton commuters, and make everyone happy.


Yup, either put it on the zone line, or make it a new 1B.
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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby diburning » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:14 pm

They've updated the schedule. Boston Landing is now in 1A.
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Re: Framingham/Worcester Line Questions

Postby BigUglyCat » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:27 pm

diburning wrote:They've updated the schedule. Boston Landing is now in 1A.

I would like to think that someone read this discussion and agreed. :wink:
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