Gov't Center Closure 2014 Discussion

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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby BigUglyCat » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:33 pm

Unfortunately, the presentation link is coming through with unreadable code.
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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby FatNoah » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:21 pm

The presentation link is for a Power Point Presentation. I was able to open it without a problem.
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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby jamesinclair » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:00 am

Whats shocking is that they plan on closing this for two years (cough, five) and plan on doing nothing to fix the brattle loop so its more usable.
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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby sery2831 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:32 am

Not sure what you mean by fixing the Brattle Loop. There is not a true demand for it's use(even with the GLX) because it really does not allow a connection to Downtown. And since it will always be one track in each direction to Park Street, double tracking Gov't Center will not help either.
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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby jamesinclair » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:50 pm

sery2831 wrote:Not sure what you mean by fixing the Brattle Loop. There is not a true demand for it's use(even with the GLX) because it really does not allow a connection to Downtown. And since it will always be one track in each direction to Park Street, double tracking Gov't Center will not help either.


It should be used as a terminus for the GLX to Tufts.

Union square trains would continue to be Es.

Might even work better as a stub end (like the C) instead of a loop, so two trains can park there and load/unload from either side as needed. As it is now, the curve makes ti handicap unfriendly.
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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby The EGE » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:43 pm

Turning GLX trains at Government Center would be a very stupid idea indeed. No one wants to transfer to get to Park Street.
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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby BostonUrbEx » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:47 pm

The EGE wrote:Turning GLX trains at Government Center would be a very stupid idea indeed. No one wants to transfer to get to Park Street.


I wonder if it would be possible to have the westbound track be capable of having a switch onto the pocket at Park, pulling up along the eastbound platform, and then reverse back to GLX once they get that switch in place to go from the loop track to the eastbound track north of Park.

That's a jumble of directions, I hope it is clear.
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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby SM89 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:18 pm

They're building an awful lot of random rooms alongside the Brattle loop and one right in the middle of the western edge of the platform. What's up with that?
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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby Disney Guy » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:12 pm

There is no need to terminate regular service trains from the north (Lechmere and beyond) at Brattle Loop. These trains can simply be regular service to and from the existing lines to the west.

Extras can be run from Brattle Loop to the north to fill in for delayed trains from the west, or Brattle Loop can be used if there is a blockage in the subway to the west.
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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby BostonUrbEx » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:40 pm

SM89 wrote:They're building an awful lot of random rooms alongside the Brattle loop and one right in the middle of the western edge of the platform. What's up with that?


The rooms on the Brattle Loop will be occupying the open space on the far side of the track, away from any egresses. Theres no need for that platform space seeing as you'd just have to cross the loop track to get out of there any way. Might as well make into storage rooms or offices.

I'm not sure what you mean about the west edge, though?
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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby jamesinclair » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:56 pm

The EGE wrote:Turning GLX trains at Government Center would be a very stupid idea indeed. No one wants to transfer to get to Park Street.


Who would need to transfer at Park?

You forget where these people are coming from. Theyre coming from north of the Charles, none of them want to go downtown to take the red line back out. Anyone going to Harvard, Central, or Kenmore would be using an east-west bus. Current green line passenegrs transfer because theyre coming from points south and west.

Red line points south? Not much outside of south station, which is a quick walk or an easy transfer.

Orange line? North station and haymarket.

Disney Guy wrote:There is no need to terminate regular service trains from the north (Lechmere and beyond) at Brattle Loop. These trains can simply be regular service to and from the existing lines to the west.


No need to? Anyone who has ever scheduled a bus or train run knows longer = bad. More chance for delays, breakdowns, service issues etc. If you can run the same service as two separate routes without inconveniencing passengers, you do it because of all the operational benefits.

I mean, yes, you could combine the 77, the 1 and then a bus running further south.....but you dont because such a long route would be a disaster, for example. On the green line, thats why theres so many short turns.


Further, if the GLX (to tufts, no union square) is run as a separate line terminating at Brattle, you get one very enormous advantage:

You can order vehicles that dont have to be designed to fit ancient and burdensome specs, like the Boylston turn.

Imagine that, vehicle designed for a 2020 transit route, instead of a 1920 tunnel!
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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby The EGE » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:19 am

Under no circumstance is the MBTA going to order a trolley that can't go west of Government Center. That'd increase maintenance complexity for no real benefit. The GLX will do just fine with Type 7, 8, and 9 trolleys - while well-trafficked, it won't be as overloaded as the Copley-Government Center section of the line.

The Red Line gets riders to South Station. The Red line gets riders to Mass General, and to Kendall. (During rush hour, traveling to Kendall from much of the GLX area will be quicker via the GLX and Red Line than low-frequency buses.) The Red Line brings commuters from Alewife and Quincy, who would wish to work at the business developments planned for Somerville. The Red Line allows a transfer to the Silver Line (Waterfront). Park Street is closer to the business district, the Common and Downtown Crossing than Government Center. West of Park Street are the major destinations of Back Bay, Copley Square and the Prudential, and Kenmore/Fenway - plus the Silver Line (Washington Street) to/from Dudley Square and the South End hospitals.

There is a reason that trains no longer regularly turn at Park Street. The MBTA realizes that minimizing the number of transfers is vastly important to journey time. Brattle Loop may have been useful when cars were running hour-plus routes from all over the northern suburbs and the Tremont SStreet Subway was full of streetcars. But in the modern era, it is destined only for storage and special service.
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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby jamesinclair » Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:29 am

The EGE wrote:The MBTA realizes that minimizing the number of transfers is vastly important to journey time.


You mean the same MBTA that refuses to build the red-blue transfer, the same MBTA that keeps cutting the E line (forcing bus transfers), and the very same MBTA that plans on closing government center for two years?

Also the same MBTA that keeps the Hynes secondary entrance closed, rebuilt and then closed the second Arlington entrance, and then refused a developer request to open the other chinatown entrance?

The very same MBTA that said no to free signal priority in Brookline?

The same MBTA that sends the least frequent line, and ONLY the least frequent line to the very busy Lechmere bus transfer point?

It appears that the MBTA doesn't give a damn about rider travel time and inconveniences. So no, I dont buy the idea that the MBTA makes any sort of effort to minimize transfers.
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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby Adams_Umass_Boston » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:41 pm

A friend and I will be attending the meeting on Wednesday. Will take notes.
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Re: Gov't Center could close for three years beginning in 20

Postby The EGE » Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:54 pm

I plan to attend the meeting as well.
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