Green Line Type 9 Thread

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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby bostontrainguy » Wed May 13, 2015 1:24 pm

BandA wrote:If I were the "T" I would hold on to the type 7's as long as possible. The low floor layout of the type 8's are really awkward.


They kind of are . . . the 7s are going through a complete rehab. Two are back and on the property and running through the subway as "Test Trains" without passengers right now.

There has been no talk about rehabbing the 8s.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby Gerry6309 » Sun May 31, 2015 1:07 pm

bostontrainguy wrote:
BandA wrote:If I were the "T" I would hold on to the type 7's as long as possible. The low floor layout of the type 8's are really awkward.


They kind of are . . . the 7s are going through a complete rehab. Two are back and on the property and running through the subway as "Test Trains" without passengers right now.

There has been no talk about rehabbing the 8s.

The Type 8s are new enough that some are probably still under warranty. If the Type Nines are as troublesome, the T might still be accepting them in 2030!

Take a ride in a train with a Type 8 in front on the B line and watch the loading process at busy stops. Then do the same on a Type 7. As long as we continue with PAYE, the Type 8s will be slower because of the narrower entry, and the steps to the low floor section. Until the fare collection issue is resolved the Green Line will never operate at maximum speed and capacity.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby PublicTransitUSA » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:28 pm

A little behind the scenes. CAF from Spain set up a Type 8 to mimic the dimensions of the Type 9s (see above the vertical window.) They are sending it out with cameras pointed at them to see if it will hit anything in service.

Image

Image
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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby bostontrainguy » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:21 am

I'm guessing that's the location of the mirrors? They do protrude out pretty far in the renderings I've seen.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby PublicTransitUSA » Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:13 pm

A dummy type 9 driver's cab arrived in Boston from Spain. There may be a touch screen for some driver's controls
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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby bostontrainguy » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:32 am

And I hope cameras and video for the doors.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby PublicTransitUSA » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:28 pm

Yes
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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby diburning » Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:24 pm

Semi-related post. Kansas City has ordered similar cars (which appear to be longer than the MBTA's) from CAF, and appear to have entered production.

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Photo Credit: Kansas City Streetcar
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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby BandA » Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:02 pm

$4.5M each for 4 Urbos 3 cars? These are actually options on the Cincinnati order. 77.4ft, low floor. Max speed 43.5MPH. Can be lengthened by adding "modules", which I assume isn't part of the order. Delivery is late apparently.

5/14/2014 MBTA Type 9. Also made by CAF. $118M for 24 = $4.91M each (so much for economy of scale). Presumably dimensions customized.

Can't find the actual contract documents.

Contrast with red/orange purchase at $566.6M for 284 = $2M each.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby CRail » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:38 pm

The price is for the contract, not for each vehicle. Orders of 24 are going to have a ridiculous per unit cost. Everyone says we got so few trackless trolleys because they were $1.1 million a piece when, in actuality, they were $1.1 million a piece because we got so few.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby Gerry6309 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:07 pm

CRail wrote:The price is for the contract, not for each vehicle. Orders of 24 are going to have a ridiculous per unit cost. Everyone says we got so few trackless trolleys because they were $1.1 million a piece when, in actuality, they were $1.1 million a piece because we got so few.

... Considering that we replaced 60 with 50, and then replaced the 50 with 28, it seems to indicate a steep decline in ridership. The Boston Elevated and the MTA invested heavily in trackless trolleys. Most of that investment was thrown away in less than two years ca. 1961-63. San Francisco can order 400 trackless trolleys in a flash because their investment is intact. Boston was unable to remove the last four lines, and since their removal is now politically incorrect, we pay a steep price for replacements.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby BandA » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:03 pm

Gerry6309 wrote:
CRail wrote:The price is for the contract, not for each vehicle. Orders of 24 are going to have a ridiculous per unit cost. Everyone says we got so few trackless trolleys because they were $1.1 million a piece when, in actuality, they were $1.1 million a piece because we got so few.

... Considering that we replaced 60 with 50, and then replaced the 50 with 28, it seems to indicate a steep decline in ridership. The Boston Elevated and the MTA invested heavily in trackless trolleys. Most of that investment was thrown away in less than two years ca. 1961-63. San Francisco can order 400 trackless trolleys in a flash because their investment is intact. Boston was unable to remove the last four lines, and since their removal is now politically incorrect, we pay a steep price for replacements.
Trackless trolleys are amazing: quiet, no air pollution (except at the power station), energy efficient, mechanically simple, and last much longer than a bus. Doesn't the "T" spend more than $1.1M for a diesel bus these days? And if they need more trackless trolleys they should coordinate with SF.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby chrisf » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:34 pm

BandA wrote:Doesn't the "T" spend more than $1.1M for a diesel bus these days? And if they need more trackless trolleys they should coordinate with SF.

The most recent contract for buses is about $683,000 each for hybrid/CNG powered buses. http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/news/ ... r-new.html
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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby bostontrainguy » Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:18 am

diburning wrote:Semi-related post. Kansas City has ordered similar cars (which appear to be longer than the MBTA's) from CAF, and appear to have entered production.

Photo Credit: Kansas City Streetcar

So they have dual gauge track in Elmira, NY!
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Re: Green Line Type 9 Thread

Postby tommyboy6181 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:40 pm

canobiecrazy wrote:
orange1234 wrote:It looks like the Type 9 contract will be awarded to CAF USA. Does anyone know what their track record is in the USA besides building the WMATA 5000 series vehicles?


Within the USA, they have also built some of Sacramento's light rail vehicles, and are contracted to provide rolling stock for the Kansas City and Cincinnati streetcars. Internationally, they have a long track record of both low floor and high floor light rail vehicles, as well as heavy rail metro trains.


In the USA, their first LRV contracts were with Pittsburgh and Sacramento. Those trains have performed well. Pittsburgh also had CAF rebuild the original Siemens-Duewag trains that were used since system inception to match the CAF vehicles. Pittsburgh uses Bombardier propulsion (Bombardier has a propulsion center in Pittsburgh) and those motors were designed to provide around 275hp due to the terrain. In Sacramento, CAF partnered with Alstom for the propulsion and those trains have also performed well.

The WMATA 5000 series are being retired at midlife due to continued problems and reliability. Keep in mind with that contract, CAF did not do the assembly of the vehicles. That was performed by AAI out of Hunt Valley, MD since CAF did not have their Elmira plant up and running at that point. AAI was bought out by Alstom. Also, WMATA rushed the contract and ended up paying big time for it. Those trains will be replaced by their new Kawasaki 7000 series cars as one of the option orders that was agreed to.

Globally, CAF tends to perform really well on their trains. Their LRV's specifically are highly standardized, known as the URBOS platform. This means that even though the trains can be customized to an extent, many of the same components are used on every project they have. It helps with reliability overall. Other companies such as Bombardier do this with their Flexity trains, Siemens with their S70 trains, Alstom with their Citadis trains, and even Hitachi Rail (formerly AnsaldoBreda) with the Sirio trains.

My opinion is that CAF should not have the problems that AnsaldoBreda had. Plus, they can actually deliver without being excessively late unlike Breda. Heck, in Buffalo, we are almost 10 years into a 27 car LRV rebuild and Breda hasn't even completed that yet.

Here is an updated rendering of the new Type 9 from the CAF website:
http://www.caf.net/en/productos-servici ... .php?p=271
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