Green Line Type 9 Thread

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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby sery2831 » Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:50 pm

jamesinclair wrote:And thats another thing... why does every car need to have two cabs? Its a huge waste of space AND money.

Just run a two car train back to back instead. Maybe even having fixed married pair consists would be appropriate.


That would create a fare collection issue since the trailing cars cab would needed to be faced in reverse. And for off peak service how would you turn cars in a diversion assuming you keep single ended cars away from places that do not have loops.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby jamesinclair » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:09 am

sery2831 wrote:
jamesinclair wrote:And thats another thing... why does every car need to have two cabs? Its a huge waste of space AND money.

Just run a two car train back to back instead. Maybe even having fixed married pair consists would be appropriate.


That would create a fare collection issue since the trailing cars cab would needed to be faced in reverse. And for off peak service how would you turn cars in a diversion assuming you keep single ended cars away from places that do not have loops.


Fare collection is not an issue. Green Line has been moving to POP since 2007, and the MBTA wants to get rid of the second driver, as hes useless.

Even off peak, why would you have a single car running instead of two if only one staff member is needed? Currently, the only reason singles are run is to save on labor costs.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby sery2831 » Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:21 am

Running single cars saves more money than just the labor cost. It reduces mileage on the cars and saves big time on maintenance.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby jamesinclair » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:26 pm

sery2831 wrote:Running single cars saves more money than just the labor cost. It reduces mileage on the cars and saves big time on maintenance.


It also annoys the paying customers, as they have to run to catch a smaller train and then be crowded in.

Ive noticed that more and more single car trains are making daytime runs, and theyre always packed.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby typesix » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:26 pm

Ive noticed that more and more single car trains are making daytime runs, and theyre always packed.

Usually because of a problem and the train had to be split and sometimes due to lack of operators.

Single cars are common on weekends before 9-10 AM, when ridership is low.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:24 am

RailBus63 wrote:With any luck, though, maybe Kinki-Sharyo will win the contract to build this group.

I'd pick Bombardier. They have a upcoming order in the next decade to replace the entire TTC streetcar fleet with modern light rail vehicles and perhaps a combined order could work.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby madcrow » Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:09 pm

Am I the only one here who actually likes the "modernized/streamlined Type 7" look of the Type 9 concept exteriors better than the "totally modern" European-style trams that so many other people here seem to advocate?
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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby jamesinclair » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:18 pm

madcrow wrote:Am I the only one here who actually likes the "modernized/streamlined Type 7" look of the Type 9 concept exteriors better than the "totally modern" European-style trams that so many other people here seem to advocate?


From an image point of view, don;t you think it's better for the MBTA to show that they're modern instead of old fashioned?

It's frequently argued that the main reason people seem to prefer a trolley over a bus is image. The train just gives out a better image, so people are more prone to ride it. Likewise, doesn't it follow that more people will be prone to ride a modern looking tram than something that recycles the same design thats been in use since the 1960s?

But again, like I said before, even more important is how it's set up inside. More doors, less steps, more space.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby typesix » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:36 pm

The average rider could care less about the looks, all they want is a comfortable and reliable ride. When Metro North repainted locos in New Haven colors, riders were asked and they didn't notice any difference in way the trains looked.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby jamesinclair » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:33 pm

typesix wrote:The average rider could care less about the looks, all they want is a comfortable and reliable ride. When Metro North repainted locos in New Haven colors, riders were asked and they didn't notice any difference in way the trains looked.


Of course people care! People are extremely conscious of image.

Ive shown many people around Boston, and on more than one occasion Ive been asked how old the green line cars were, and why they havent gotten new ones . . . in reference to the bredas. They dont believe me when I say "theyre 3 years old".

Perception is incredibly important when it comes to motivating people to ride mass transit. People do NOT want to ride 30 year old vehicles. I can't explain why, but people like the new and the shiny. When the new and shiny looks old, people don't respond well. We all know that the MBTA has many image problems. People think it's slow, unreliable, dirty, old etc etc.

Opportunity to buy new vehicles comes rarely. If it costs the same to make a car that looks like a type 7/8 as it does to make a car that looks sleek and modern....then why lose out on improving the agencies image?

(Im excluding heritage lines of course, especially as most of them are directed at tourists and not commuters)

Another example comes from the land of buses. Every time a BRT line in this country is introduced, it comes with rounded shiny buses that look like european trams. They obviously realize how important image is. Does the shiny rounded bus provide a better ride than a square one? No. But people respond better to them.

A final example comes from other american subway systems. How did Washington DC metro work to attract car dependent commuters when they opened in the 1970s? IMAGE. Carpets. Cushioned seats. Forward facing seats. Modern stations. Colorful lights at the platform edge. By making the system "deluxe" they got people to ride who would never touch a "dirty" bus
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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby sery2831 » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:25 pm

jamesinclair wrote:Of course people care! People are extremely conscious of image.

Ive shown many people around Boston, and on more than one occasion Ive been asked how old the green line cars were, and why they havent gotten new ones . . . in reference to the bredas. They dont believe me when I say "theyre 3 years old".


While technically some cars may have been in service only 3 years. The cars themselves were made in 1999-2001. With all the delays the final assembly of them was just delayed over the years.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby R36 Combine Coach » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:27 pm

The final Type 8 deliveries were 2008 (possibly late 2007?).
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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby sery2831 » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:11 pm

While the final cars arrived on T property that late, the cars were in Littleton, MA inside a warehouse since the early 2000s.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby diburning » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:23 pm

Going back on topic to the type 9s... Looking at the concept drawings, it doesn't look like they are addressing the issue with the center truck on the type 8s. It looks like they are going to use the same stub axle design on the center section with the type 9s.

Thinking about it, I drew up a little sketch on microsoft paint.

If they put a ramp in the middle section (to accomodate people who can't do stairs) so that the midle section isn't low floor, they could probably put a full idler truck in there. The current typ 8s have the seats elevated on the middle section. The elevated part where the footrest area is is only about 6-8 inches above the floor. That would mean that the ramp would only need to be that high, which wouldn't make for a very steep ramp.

I have two ideas. The first one is a simple gradual ramp that goes up, then back down.

NOTE: Sketches are not drawn to scale. These designs may or may not work depending on the actual height and how much room they have to work with on the ends.

Image

If theres enough room for a ramp that isn't too steep for a wheelchair to gp up, then this design would also work

Image

Since the middle truck won't be powered, it shouldn't take up much more room than the current design of the center section of the type 8s. The ceiling height may be an issue though.

With the ramps, they would probably have to use rubber with the floor on the ramps so that people don't slip on it when wet.

Or, if possible, a single gradual curved ramp with a flatter center point also work instead of having two ramps.
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Re: Green Line Type 9 concept drawings

Postby sery2831 » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:25 pm

I don't think the ADA would allow ramps inside the car. I bet they have a spec saying the floor has to be flat. Thanks for bringing this back on topic :-)
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