Stabbing today on the Red Line at South Station 9.16

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Postby efin98 » Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:19 am

parovozis wrote:
efin98 wrote:Construction galore on the line, trains getting older, and incidents affecting service don't help but the line is in no way falling apart.


I mean... It's failing to serve as a reliable means of transportation, something you can unconditionally trust. In the past two weeks I missed more buses because of the RL delays than in the whole past year.


How is the Red Line failing to serve as a reliable means of transportation? Seriously, everonle would love to hear your reasoning behind that. A stabbing on the train doesn ot make it less reliable- less safe maybe, but not less reliable. Construction that obstructs the line does not make it less reliable- annoying maybe, but not less reliable. A hazarous materials evacuation does not make the line less reliable- more vigilant maybe, but not less reliable. A bad 12 day stretch for the line does not make it less reliable, it makes the line look bad but it is not less reliable.

Let me ask you this: how many other people missed buses this week because trains were delayed or lines were shut down due to problems? Every line in every city in every country has problems that causes someone to miss a bus at some point. That's a gamble to take when you rely on someone else to do the driving for you. How would you like to be a regular rider in New York or Chicago which has had lines shut down for over two years due to similar construction that the Red Line had 12 days ago. You don't see them calling their transit lines "unreliable". In fact, the only lines in the past ten years that have been shut down for longer than a few days were the Green Line due to severe flooding back in 1996, the Blue Line beyond Orient Heights when every one of the stations beyond Orient Heights were torn down and rebuilt, and the Green Line due to the reallignment. I am sorry but for a system as old as Boston's system is- that is pretty damn reliable.
efin98
 

Postby Robert Paniagua » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:56 am

You're right, Ed. I agree with you, man......

As for the Train in which the stabbing ocurred, was this on an Ashmont-bound train, and on an 01800 consist?

Just curious.

I had no problem getting home yesterday from Park Street till Braintree myself.
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Postby octr202 » Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:53 am

I've gotten that feeling about much of the subway of late. I use it frequently to make short trips to meetings around downtown Boston and Cambridge, and of late, I've found myself adding 10 to 15 minutes to every trip I take to ensure there's no "snafu" that day. However, my worst experiences have been on the Green Line (althoughthere have been plenty of nights I've waited and waited at Kendall wishing the 68 upstairs was running more often)-- but that's probably just luck of the draw. But it is frustrating both when you have to allow for a "cushion" in your schedulee that's sometimes longer than the trip time (barring problems), and even more frustrating when you find yourself usually burning most of that cushion time sitting somewhere waiting for a connection.
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Postby fm535 » Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:31 pm

I am going to go on both sides of the debate here...I understand that maintenance and upgrades and mechanical failures are inevitable with an old system, and equipment, etc. I already added that factor into my commute... 1 hour from JFK to Braintree, to get to work. Since the derailment at Wollaston, it has appeared that the Red Line has had numerous little incidents, but NOT all mechanical failures. I was on the train the other morning, and we had a medical emergency, and that held us up. It is the luck of the drawer, and I "deal with it"! Tomorrow's bustitution is going to add at least another 20 to 30 minutes onto the commute, but hopefully, the repairs speed things back up on the Wollaston stretch! ---I don't think the line is falling apart, I think it is a spate of problems that will disappear soon! (Just glad its not a T-8 derailing elsewhere...that would be sad!)
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Postby parovozis » Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:38 pm

efin98 wrote:How is the Red Line failing to serve as a reliable means of transportation? Seriously, everonle would love to hear your reasoning behind that. A stabbing on the train doesn ot make it less reliable- less safe maybe, but not less reliable...


I am comparing oranges to oranges: the Red Line in May, when I used every day, and the Red Line in September, when I am using it every day again. And the two Red Lines are very different. When I can't rely on something, I call it unreliable. It used to take me 15 minutes to get from Park To Alewife. Now it takes me anything from 15 minutes to 30 minutes. My schedule and the schedule of my bus is such that I acn't leave earlier, and if I miss a bus, I have to wait for another hour. I am getting sick and tired of engineers mumbling something totally illegible about all kinds of signalling problems, drunk passengers, etc., etc., trains standing in the middle of nowhere waiting for God knows what, bus schedules that are not adjusted to train schedules and vice versa, and many other things that all of a sudden developed during Summer 2004. Blame the DNC, if you like, or blame my utilitarian approach to the subject, but the Red Line is becoming unreliable. I sincerely hope that these problems are temporary.
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Postby efin98 » Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:04 pm

parovozis wrote:I am comparing oranges to oranges: the Red Line in May, when I used every day, and the Red Line in September, when I am using it every day again.


A lot can change in three months, service in May is not the same service as September. For one, there is the summer increase, then there is the schedule change, increased ridership, and that little derailment at Wollaston and the closure of Savin Hill and the construction at Fields Corner. All of those things add to change the Red Line dramatically during the summer months.

And the two Red Lines are very different. When I can't rely on something, I call it unreliable. It used to take me 15 minutes to get from Park To Alewife. Now it takes me anything from 15 minutes to 30 minutes.


Not surprising, that derailment at Wollaston and the construction/demolition of the two Ashmont branch stations have slowed northbound trains quite a bit.

My schedule and the schedule of my bus is such that I acn't leave earlier, and if I miss a bus, I have to wait for another hour.


You aren't the only one though, there are thousands of other people like you who have tight connections but you don't hear them calling the service unreliable. It's a risk you take when taking public transportation.

I am getting sick and tired of engineers mumbling something totally illegible about all kinds of signalling problems, drunk passengers, etc., etc., trains standing in the middle of nowhere waiting for God knows what, bus schedules that are not adjusted to train schedules and vice versa, and many other things that all of a sudden developed during Summer 2004.


How would you know that is occuring if you said so yourself that you were not a regular rider. You are assuming that stuff happens on a regular basis.

Blame the DNC, if you like, or blame my utilitarian approach to the subject, but the Red Line is becoming unreliable. I sincerely hope that these problems are temporary.


It's not becoming unreliable, it is becoming a line that is undergoing changes for the better. I don't think you realize that there are events that even the MBTA can not control. The T can't control passengers who want to kill each other. The T can't control idiots who decidce that white powder is something fun to leave laying around. The T can't control when a car decides to jump the tracks and cause massive damage the the enbankment. The T can control when the line shuts down for construction- there's a reason certain weekends are chosen for shut downs. It may inconventinence you but you chose to ride the line and you chose to make tight connnections- you can't blame the T for your decisions.
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Postby parovozis » Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:31 pm

Not surprising, that derailment at Wollaston and the construction/demolition of the two Ashmont branch stations have slowed northbound trains quite a bit.


I have no idea how construction at Ashmont or derailment at Wollaston can slow down northbound trains between Park Street and Alewife. Please explain.

You aren't the only one though, there are thousands of other people like you who have tight connections but you don't hear them calling the service unreliable.


How do you know?

How would you know that is occuring if you said so yourself that you were not a regular rider. You are assuming that stuff happens on a regular basis.


Please read my post carefully. I am a regiular rider, I just did not use trains in Summer. And I can easily see the difference between what was in May and what is in September.

It's not becoming unreliable, it is becoming a line that is undergoing changes for the better.


As I already mentioned, I sincerely hope you are right. I just don't see any signs of improvement, just the signs of deterioration. Anyway, why would a passenger try to justify a lousy transit service? Just curious.

I don't think you realize that there are events that even the MBTA can not control.


Yes I do. Every transit authority faces events it cannot control. Stopping trains because of lousy signalling is not one of them.

It may inconventinence you but you chose to ride the line and you chose to make tight connnections - you can't blame the T for your decisions.


I am blaming the T for the deterioration of the service, not for my decisions. The decisions I used to make don't work with the Red Line anymore. This is what I call unreliable service.
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Postby efin98 » Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:06 am

parovozis wrote:I have no idea how construction at Ashmont or derailment at Wollaston can slow down northbound trains between Park Street and Alewife. Please explain.


Simple, trains heading North from Ashmont and Braintree have to go through those spots and naturally if they are delayed heading north they will be delayed at those stations as well.

How do you know?


How do I know? I see it all the time at Haymarket and Government Center with the North Shore buses and express buses. People missing their buses by a few seconds like happened to you but I don't hear them complaining much. In fact the most common thing I heard was nothing at all- just a disgruntled sigh and a queary to the inspector when the next bus is scheduled to leave.

How would you know that is occuring if you said so yourself that you were not a regular rider. You are assuming that stuff happens on a regular basis.


I read it and stand behind what I said. You are not taking into account what has happened to the Red Line this summer- you are comparing service before and after your hiatus while not taking into account any of the events this summer which have clearly had an impact on the line. You leave a huge gap in time with no valid comparison- you didn't ride when the changes were in full swing so you lack a key part of the comparison.

As I already mentioned, I sincerely hope you are right. I just don't see any signs of improvement, just the signs of deterioration.


You must be blind then, because those signs of "deterioration" have been isolated incidents that don't add up to much more than facts of life for ALL TRANSIT LINES.

Anyway, why would a passenger try to justify a lousy transit service? Just curious.


This says it all. "Lousy transit service"? That shows no matter what is done you will still complain about anything. Sorry things are not good enough to meet your high standards, but if you don't like it then drive to work or to school or wherever you have to go. Don't take pot shots at the T because you have an axe to grind.

I don't think you realize that there are events that even the MBTA can not control.


Yes I do. Every transit authority faces events it cannot control. Stopping trains because of lousy signalling is not one of them.


How so? Seriously, how were you stopped because of lousy signaling? From what you have stated you were stuck during one of the incidents downtown, how can you blame the signals for trains being held up and stopped downtown. I would love to hear the explanation for that one.


I am blaming the T for the deterioration of the service, not for my decisions.


No, you are looking for a scape goat for fouling up and not paying attention to what was going on. You haven't taken an responsibility in finding out what caused delays- you just blamed the T for lousy service. Sorry, but ignorance doesn't make a bad transit system- just bad riders.

The decisions I used to make don't work with the Red Line anymore. This is what I call unreliable service.


No, this is pure arrogence. You want the T to work around you, you don't want to change your preset life to work around the T. The T isn't being unreliable- you are being unreasonable. You want everything to be perfect, you want everything to your advantage, you want the T to be at your will. The T didn't do that and rather than face the facts you are blaming the T. Sorry, but you are blaming the wrong people- blame yourself.
efin98
 

Postby Robert Paniagua » Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:19 am

Paravozis,

Ed is very much right about the Red line situation. I have to side with him. Also, it would be nice if you can keep the tempers down, because I don't want to have to take any action here. Thanks, Paravozis.

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Postby parovozis » Sat Sep 18, 2004 12:05 pm

It was efin98, not me, who started loosing his temper.

Simple, trains heading North from Ashmont and Braintree have to go through those spots and naturally if they are delayed heading north they will be delayed at those stations as well.


Delayed - yes, slowed down - no. Once a train passes throgh all those spots there is nothing that would prevent it from going as fast as usual.

How do I know? I see it all the time at Haymarket and Government Center with the North Shore buses and express buses.


When I miss my bus at Alewife, I don't start complaining right away because it makes no sense. In fact, the T personnel at Alewife is not even sure of whether the bus has already left or, on the contrary, is late. I thought this forum was a place to discuss the T rail operations. That's why I express my concerns here, not at Alewife. How many of those folks at GC or Haymarket do really read this forum?

You leave a huge gap in time with no valid comparison- you didn't ride when the changes were in full swing so you lack a key part of the comparison.


You mean I did not see the bottom, so what I believe is a downhill is actually an uphill? I won't argue; again, I hope you are right. But it won't make my experience more pleasantful.


You must be blind then, because those signs of "deterioration" have been isolated incidents that don't add up to much more than facts of life for ALL TRANSIT LINES.


Efin98, please don't take it as a personal offense, but how many transit lines did you actully take regularly? I was a regular rider of the T, of NY subways, of the BART, of Minsk, Moscow and St.Petersburg subways, of Tokyo and Osaka subways. I have something to compare to. It's a poor excuse. Not all transit lines have similar problems. Most of them don't. I appreciate the fact that the T is the world's oldest subway system, but it needs important improvements to become a modern competitive transit system again.

This says it all. "Lousy transit service"?


Public critisizm is what improves public services. I do not want to drive. I want to use a modern reliable public transportation system. Is there something wrong with it?

From what you have stated you were stuck during one of the incidents downtown...


That wasn't me :-) That was someone else. I just piggibacked on the thread. Sorry for the confusion.

You haven't taken an responsibility in finding out what caused delays- you just blamed the T for lousy service.


That's what the motormen were reporting using the excellent intercom system: signalling problems, dead trains, and the like.

You want the T to work around you, you don't want to change your preset life to work around the T.


Why shold I? The T exists to make my life easier, not the other way out.

You want everything to be perfect, you want everything to your advantage, you want the T to be at your will.


Efin98, you want everything to be imperfect, you want everything to your disadvantage, and you want to be at the T's will. Is it really what you want?
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Postby Robert Paniagua » Sat Sep 18, 2004 12:12 pm

All right then, I guess I'm gonna have to shutter up this topic until things get better here.

Thank you all.
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