New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby FP10 » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:56 pm

itszjay wrote:They are properly the coolest thing the MBTA could do.



Thats just it, its cool... without much benefit. In all honesty I can't remember the last time someone fell onto the tracks and was hit by a train. And as infrequently as it happens it's probably cheaper for the T to deal with whatever lawsuits come along than install these doors.


Anyway, back on topic. The length/width/height(?) of the different lines are all different, but aside from the BLs pantographs is there anything that different technology-wise? I may be oversimplying here but it does seem they could (theoretically) tack onto the BL order with different dimensions.
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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby itszjay » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:03 pm

Well there is lots of level of "Custom Design" MOVIA train can be "Custom Design" the interior and exterior, there is many level of Custom design. MBTA should go with bombardier, because of the 1800 for Red Line they might work with the newer train. and they could put in a joint order with Orange Line. So Basically the interior and exterior should look the same but the withith and the height of the train should be different. most MOVIA train looks the same, and you the T custom design how wide the new train should be. MOVIA might be a better go for Orange Line, for red line maybe a design that looks alike to the 1800, but the interor should get a bit of update, so basically..they could they make more 1800s for the red line, but update the interor with like a upgrade more morden look bench seats from the 1400s, and active system map with LED to show where you can. and for the orange line MOVIA is pretty much the same thing, they could custom design the interior however the MBTA wants, and most MOVIA train has active system map. They could just pull out the 1800 blue print and upgrade it base on the 1800 so they could work as married pair. But i really want to see new cabin tech in the new Orange and Red Line train like those active system map that has LED..

And that might not happen with Siemens, MBTA got into a lab suit with Siemen, because the blue line train was to be like 50 million, but later go to 174 million due to custom part, those 700s should of been in service around 2005 if non of these thing happen, maybe more like pulling out the 1800 blue print and change the interor a bit.
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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby sery2831 » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:11 pm

The MBTA does an open bid process by posting a RFP(which is the order they want with specs). Any qualified company can bid on it. The MBTA doesn't just go to a manufacturer and buys something off the shelf or something they have had made for them. The 01800s are way behind in todays technology and believe it or not the Blue Line Type 5 cars are also a few years old design wise. Like it or not this is the way it is and they way it will remain. You can dream or suggest what would be better or what would work. But things will not change. Can we please have a real discussion and not fantasy.
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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby e-m00 » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:12 pm

FP10 wrote:The length/width/height(?) of the different lines are all different, but aside from the BLs pantographs is there anything that different technology-wise? I may be oversimplying here but it does seem they could (theoretically) tack onto the BL order with different dimensions.


If I remember correctly, the Blue line does not use ATO, whereas the Red and Orange do. I'm not well versed in how ATO itself works, but from my background in IT I can say that any system like ATO would be tied to many of the train's systems, and is not really something that can be tacked on easily. I'm not sure how long it took for ATO to be retrofitted on the Red and Orange lines, but I don't imagine it was an easy process.

Pantographs are not as much of an issue, as they involve minimal wiring and only bolt to the roof (remember, the 1200s on the Orange line have/used to have pantograph brackets on the roof).
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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby itszjay » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:27 pm

Does anyone think that the MBTA will upgrade to ATC signaling, could this mean shorter time headway? Back to topic, I think these new car will be cheap as they can, due to how much the MBTA are in debt. And i hope that there is a bidding war between company to bring cost down. The MBTA are spending 10 million $ on designing the new trains. Orange Line Fleet Procurement "This project will fund the design of the next generation vehicle for the Orange Line. In addition, the Authority will use elements of this design for the procurement of replacement No. 1 cars on the Red Line." so i guess the Newer trains would look some what the same. http://www.mbta.com/uploadedFiles/Documents/Financials/CIP7-11-Section2.pdf to this page Info are on page 4.
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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby sery2831 » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:31 pm

Judging by the fact the Orange Line just got ATO for the Oak Grove end in the last 2 years I don't see a change from ATO to something newer anytime soon. If they intended to upgrade from ATO they would have started with a new system there and worked their way south instead of bringing ATO out from Haymarket.
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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby danib62 » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:36 pm

sery2831 wrote:Judging by the fact the Orange Line just got ATO for the Oak Grove end in the last 2 years I don't see a change from ATO to something newer anytime soon. If they intended to upgrade from ATO they would have started with a new system there and worked their way south instead of bringing ATO out from Haymarket.

That statement implies that the T does things in a logical fashion which we all know not to be the case.
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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby itszjay » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:53 pm

The most i complain about MBTA is headway, if they could lower it to 3-7 (other system with same length, same train could to it).But does any one think the new orange line and red line car will cost less then blue line? due to the 2008 financial crisis, so company will try to get that contract and bid as low they can?
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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby danib62 » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:00 pm

itszjay wrote:The most i complain about MBTA is headway, if they could lower it to 3-7 (other system with same length, same train could to it).But does any one think the new orange line and red line car will cost less then blue line? due to the 2008 financial crisis, so company will try to get that contract and bid as low they can?

I've noticed. You've made that point at least 5 times now. Maybe once you'll use decent grammar and spelling?

p.s. Welcome to rr.net!!!!!
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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby itszjay » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:10 pm

Oh well, English wasn't my first language, but about Orange and Red Line Train, they could add lots of Advisement inside the train so bring more profit = $. Maybe by getting back-lit ads in like Downtown, Park Street, South Station, they have some back-lit ads in South Station Just down the fare lobby on the red line. But IS MBTA not getting any advisement from company or they don't want to put up advisement? But why not try to rise money by trying to get moy advisement from company for cheaper price? And i wish they could bring back the bench seats but in a modern look.
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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby cpontani » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:43 am

Yeah, keep on adding more advertisements...it will soon look like Fenway Park! :P

And who exactly is going to buy the 1700s? Somebody going to start of chain of Red Line Diners? Subway cars aren't like airplanes, where they can be sent to third world countries when they're only a third or halfway through their useful life, just because the airline wants new planes. Is there anywhere the Red Line trains could even fit AND work? And if they would fit in NY, why would they want Boston's used junk, when they have thousands of their own cars? With the 1700's they should be run for another 10 years or so, and we can save them to be the cherry on top of the proverbial subway sundae that is the coral reef off the NJ/DE/MD shore.
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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby itszjay » Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:59 am

Well, they might be able to run them as work train or back up train, maybe sell it to PATH or Chicago El or metrorail. The MBTA saids their train should run 35 years and UP, when you look at the 1700, they will prop. be around for 20 year or so, Hey, maybe even just wait for the 1800 to retire, they were built only 5-6 years a part. So the 1700 are in rebuilt just do it good, and retire the 1800 with 1700 in around 20-25 years, and get new train then with Blue Line, and Red Line (put in a joint order) it kind of makes sense to me I don't know about other. Well ads could bring MBTA more $$$, i don't mind the MBTA having ads everywhere. In Fact i want the MBTA to install back-lit ads in their station. It would look much better then just sticking the ad up. So i am more thinking of

-Retire 1700,1800 (red line), 700 (blue lIne) in 20-25 years
-Put a joint order for the 2000s train for Red Line Replacement for 1700,1800 and 800s train for Blue Line to replace the 700s train. (They should be replace around this time)
-and maybe MBTA has too much money they might even in 20-25 year replace all the Green Line, Red Line, Orange Line, Blue LIne train (put a super big joint order) they could grab a deal out of this.
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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby cpontani » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:00 am

Back-lit ads will entail a huge cost in running the electric to power them. If it's not broke, don't fix it.

You do NOT want to retire the entire fleet at the same time. That's a huge pill to sawllow at once. I'd hope they'd get more than 20 years out of any subway car they buy.
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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby Robert Paniagua » Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:43 pm

cpontan, you said:

What was cause for the time delay from build date to actual introduction?

it happens all the time uphere, just about, especially with this certain car order, because at the same time, the manufacturing vendor at the time was also making the Toronto Transit Commission's H6 coaches for their subway system like ours and had some issues with that and the #2 red Line car order so they had to take longer in sending out our Red Liners so that's why they didn't come till late '87 for testing after the 1986 manufacturing
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Re: New Orange and Red Line Car Acquisition Process

Postby itszjay » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:29 pm

Yea, but the Red Line 1700 should get a good over haul, and retire with the 1800. So Retire 1500,1600, then put 1900 in service, and then Retire 1700,1800 and replace them with 2000, that would be cheaper. Hum, it would be nice for blue line to get open gangway, because the blue line doesn't have that much curve. But i hope, the blue line upgrade ATO, and they should program to stop at the same place every time, and install signs on the floor to show where the train stops, so people won't guess "hum, where is the doors" So people would wait where ever it has line that said the doors are here.
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