Winter St Concourse

Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

Moderators: CRail, sery2831

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Thu May 22, 2008 12:33 am

3rdrail wrote:
FP10 wrote:Could someone explain why the red line would even need the south station loop, if it hypothetically did align and all that.


Downtown Boston doesn't have a large rapid transit terminal whereby crowds and trains can be staged to accomodate large crowds resulting from special events in an operating situation where the staging of multiple stationary trains won't impede headway along the line.


If Cabot Yard were better-aligned so it could hook into a turnback at the actual station then the long, long yard connector from Andrew could've been a way to double-up capacity. Unfortunately, even though it gets heartbreakingly close to both Broadway and SS the dang thing just isn't aligned in a useful way to support an revenue destination. Which sucks because the old upper-level Broadway trolley tunnel has an existing portal that stares right out across the street into Cabot...but the loop arrangement inside is weird for rapid-transit dimensions and thus couldn't possibly be used even if you did reclaim the upper level lobby and did do the quick duck-unders tunneling from the Cabot ROW under Dot Ave. and back underneath Foundry St. And likewise there is just too much cross-trackage, the Ft. Pt. Channel, and a few big-ass buildings in the way to get on-alignment the last 1500 feet from the yard to SS. And, really, there were previous obstructions there too even historically--through several iterations of buildings and train yard configurations on the site--that there was never a realistic possibility of doing that. Not without greater coordination across various private property interests than was probably possible at the time.
F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Posts: 7105
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:26 pm
Location: North Cambridge

Postby 3rdrail » Thu May 22, 2008 1:05 am

Yup - due to the fact that it was inherited by the T from an ancient railroad yard. Problem is that there was a time when most transit properties couldn't wait to bail. Now, the new generation is trying desperately to Mickey Mouse a patchwork assembly of former sites (if they still exist) and put them together as one cohesive unit. Too bad the old system, which was 100 % better than today's, didn't just take a deep breath, keep everything in place, and just chill. Public transportation is back. Wait until gas is $10/gall !
~Paul Joyce~
[i]Moderator: Toy Trains, Model Railroading, Outdoor and Live Steam

Paul Joyce passed away in August, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion at railroad.net.
User avatar
3rdrail
 
Posts: 5641
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:10 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Winter St Concourse

Postby BostonUrbEx » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:16 pm

Image

There's a peep hole on the doors on the eastern end of the Summer St Concourse. :)


I can't tell how far it still goes with personnel access, but judging by a fire alarm zone map at the Chauncy St entrance, it only goes to about Devonshire. This zone map is not to scale, though, I assume, and even so the entire tunnel might not be included on it.
User avatar
BostonUrbEx
 
Posts: 3585
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:55 pm
Location: Winn to MPT 8, Boston to MPN 38, and Hat to Bank

Re: Winter St Concourse

Postby BostonUrbEx » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:30 pm

Just want to say I have confirmation that the tunnel comes to an end just barely shy of Devonshire. ....I also have confirmation that the door locks behind you.

I'm surprised this tunnel doesn't go to at least High St. Supposedly this once went all the way to South Station -- so why does it now end at Devonshire? Even if severed by the Central Artery tunnel, it should go further.
User avatar
BostonUrbEx
 
Posts: 3585
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:55 pm
Location: Winn to MPT 8, Boston to MPN 38, and Hat to Bank

Re: Winter St Concourse

Postby 3rdrail » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:00 pm

There is some speculation that the corridor may have been built to facilitate the extension of the Tremont Street Subway to Post Office Square, depending who you talk with. Might it have been a "to be announced" location on it's eastern end that would have been a station for the POS Line, which would have been part of the Summer Street Station allowing a connection to the Main Line ?
~Paul Joyce~
[i]Moderator: Toy Trains, Model Railroading, Outdoor and Live Steam

Paul Joyce passed away in August, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion at railroad.net.
User avatar
3rdrail
 
Posts: 5641
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:10 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Winter St Concourse

Postby The EGE » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:10 pm

3rdrail wrote:There is some speculation that the corridor may have been built to facilitate the extension of the Tremont Street Subway to Post Office Square, depending who you talk with. Might it have been a "to be announced" location on it's eastern end that would have been a station for the POS Line, which would have been part of the Summer Street Station allowing a connection to the Main Line ?


These plans indicate that the Post Office Square subway (under Otis Street) would have connected to the now-Red Line platforms at DTX. It doesn't show, though, whether the Winter Street Concourse would have connected as well though it seems likely.
"Give me an unobstructed right-of-way and I'll show them how to move the earth!"
User avatar
The EGE
 
Posts: 2452
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:16 pm
Location: Waiting for the C Branch

Re: Winter St Concourse

Postby 3rdrail » Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:34 am

Anywhere with access to the corridors would access the other lines. It would have had to be on a seperate level than the Dorchester Tunnel, most likely above it on a similiar level as the Washington St. Subway, which just so happens to be approximately the level of the Summer St. Corridor. Looks like they were trying to make what we now know as DTX as more of a "hub". Further evidence is store access (Jordan Marsh, Filenes Basement, Raymonds, and others) which had access in the tunnels pointing to the desire to manufacture a protective shopping area way before the mall concept was so common. Montreal did the same thing on a larger scale around the mid 70's with much fanfare, expanding it yearly to date with much success. In a way it's sad as any Bostonian who was around in the 70's will tell you, downtown dried up to the suburban malls primarily due to the ease of parking the family car. For years, Filenes Basement and Jordan Marsh flourished with the access. Had this concept gone through back then, it may have saved the Downtown Crossing area from becoming a retail ghost town.
~Paul Joyce~
[i]Moderator: Toy Trains, Model Railroading, Outdoor and Live Steam

Paul Joyce passed away in August, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion at railroad.net.
User avatar
3rdrail
 
Posts: 5641
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:10 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Winter St Concourse

Postby Teamdriver » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:17 am

Yes my Rail, maybe the JM muffins would have been saved. Downtown crossing has its own crime way, and is a staging area for infiltrating 333 Wash.
User avatar
Teamdriver
 
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:18 pm

Re: Winter St Concourse

Postby jaymac » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:28 am

The macaroons! Do NOT forget the macaroons!
"A white SUV with a roof antenna just might not be a company van."
jaymac
 
Posts: 3388
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:08 pm

Re: Winter St Concourse

Postby 3rdrail » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:53 am

Anybody remember Jordan's grille just inside the door off the Summer St. Corridor ? For me, those "charcoal grilled cheeseburgers"
will be the highwater mark for burgers. I've snuck my way into many outdoor and indoor hamburgers since then and I have never, ever tasted such a scrumptuous burger ! It was magnificent ! It had all of the characteristics of what a quality cheesebuger should have- quality beef, real grilling cooked on the grille before your eyes with it suddenly catching fire from time to time giving it that delicious barbeque taste, great fresh cheese on an equally fresh deli roll. They also grilled and buttered your bun at the same time so it was a double treat !
~Paul Joyce~
[i]Moderator: Toy Trains, Model Railroading, Outdoor and Live Steam

Paul Joyce passed away in August, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion at railroad.net.
User avatar
3rdrail
 
Posts: 5641
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:10 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Winter St Concourse

Postby jaymac » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:01 pm

...just gotta wonder about the number of heart attacks over the decades...
"A white SUV with a roof antenna just might not be a company van."
jaymac
 
Posts: 3388
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:08 pm

Re: Winter St Concourse

Postby 3rdrail » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:39 pm

...unless they come out years from now and say that red meat is good for you. Remember when coffee was bad ?
~Paul Joyce~
[i]Moderator: Toy Trains, Model Railroading, Outdoor and Live Steam

Paul Joyce passed away in August, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion at railroad.net.
User avatar
3rdrail
 
Posts: 5641
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:10 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Winter St Concourse

Postby BostonUrbEx » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:10 pm

3rdrail wrote:There is some speculation that the corridor may have been built to facilitate the extension of the Tremont Street Subway to Post Office Square, depending who you talk with. Might it have been a "to be announced" location on it's eastern end that would have been a station for the POS Line, which would have been part of the Summer Street Station allowing a connection to the Main Line ?


So is it possible that the Summer St Concourse was never intended to go beyond Devonshire, and in fact never did? I could certainly imagine it tying in to a PO branch quite successfully. But there seems to be little evidence that the concourse ever went any further. Are there any personal recollections or any pictures whatsoever that the concourse went all the way to South Station? Seems like it was a generally accepted "fact", but I suspect now that it may have not have ever been so.
User avatar
BostonUrbEx
 
Posts: 3585
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:55 pm
Location: Winn to MPT 8, Boston to MPN 38, and Hat to Bank

Re: Winter St Concourse

Postby 3rdrail » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:47 pm

I've never seen any indication that it went all the way. Also, at it's shallow depth, it would have had to be cut into by the Big Dig which undoubtably would have made press. I've never even heard a whisper. We know that at the very least, a take-off point was established in the Tremont Subway, so looking at the conceptual maps, it's apparent that there would have been a stop on Summer just about at Otis, so a corridor to connect all five stations running through to Devonshire would make sense. This to me is the more likely candidate as it occurs to me that if the intent was to make a controlled access and climate shopping experience along Summer St. that it most likely would have been done along Washington instead. Perhaps both ? I'm still going with the new station, however. Then, there would most likely have been Park - Winter - Summer - Washington - and Otis.
~Paul Joyce~
[i]Moderator: Toy Trains, Model Railroading, Outdoor and Live Steam

Paul Joyce passed away in August, 2013. We honor his memory and his devotion at railroad.net.
User avatar
3rdrail
 
Posts: 5641
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:10 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Winter St Concourse

Postby Teamdriver » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:14 am

Otis street has a nice ring to it, get off at Otis , walk upstairs , & bingo Joe & Nemo's at the corner of Summer and Kingston, hot doggety.........
User avatar
Teamdriver
 
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:18 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Bramdeisroberts and 4 guests