Winter St Concourse

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Postby MBTA3247 » Mon May 19, 2008 4:47 pm

FP10 wrote:
Ron Newman wrote:What? The Silver Line level is above the Red Line level at South Station.


I meant that the highway now goes under both the Silver Line and Red Line, whereas before it went above the Red Line and through the Summer St tunnel

You're partially right: the southbound lanes of I-93 use the old northbound tunnel, so the highway goes both over and under the Red Line tunnel.
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Postby Gerry6309 » Mon May 19, 2008 9:15 pm

With the pre-existing Orange Line station and the Substation and Lobby in the space at South Station the upper level was never intended to be used for rail purposes. They are extensions of the then existing Orange Line lobbies in the already excavated space.

The loop for the Silver line is about a block south of the station (at East St.). By there the highway tunnels are directly below and a block and a half west on the same level. It would be possible to drop down far enough to get below the SB highway tunnel, but it would be steep and expensive.
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The next stop is Washington. Change for Forest Hills Trains on the Winter St. Platform, and Everett Trains on the Summer St. Platform. This is an Ashmont train, change for Braintree at Columbia.
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Postby Arborway » Mon May 19, 2008 9:41 pm

From Extreme Engineering's episode Boston's Big Dig (available from The iTunes Store)

Cross-section of South Station below-grade:
Image

Another view - the highway tunnel is at the lowest point, and in the animation this was grabbed from, rises up to a point just below the the Red Line (not pictured here, but below):
Image

The top of the highway tunnel's upper slab is 36 inches below the Red Line tunnel:
Image

A view of the Fort Point Channel highway / Silver Line tunnel foundation bridging the Red Line:

Image
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Postby Gerry6309 » Tue May 20, 2008 8:24 am

Neat pictures, but the Red Line is not in tubes at that point, just a plain arch roof tunnel without a center wall. There is a partial center wall in most of the station, except for where the substation was, which has a solid wall. East of that section there is no center wall until just before the Fort Point Channel Tubes begin. It was a very deep cut and cover project to build that.

The original South Station Lobby was a bit east of the present lobby and had a very high ceiling, matching that of the adjacent substation. There was a gallery staircase at the east end looking down on the fare collection area. The middle set of stairs and escalators from the Red Line now come up through this area.
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The next stop is Washington. Change for Forest Hills Trains on the Winter St. Platform, and Everett Trains on the Summer St. Platform. This is an Ashmont train, change for Braintree at Columbia.
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Washington Street/Jordan Marsh Basement Entrance.

Postby jake1966 » Tue May 20, 2008 9:00 am

I use to hate Jordan Marsh Dollar Days waiting for those floor to ceiling turnstiles to be unlocked. It was no fun for a kid 4-6 years old being pushed and stepped on by all them adults wanting to get a bargain. :(
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Postby BigUglyCat » Tue May 20, 2008 9:31 am

Gerry6309 wrote:...The original South Station Lobby was a bit east of the present lobby and had a very high ceiling, matching that of the adjacent substation. There was a gallery staircase at the east end looking down on the fare collection area. The middle set of stairs and escalators from the Red Line now come up through this area.


I hope this isn't too far off topic. In a book on construction of the expressway (Boston's Central Artery (MA) (Images of America) by Yanni K. Tsipis), there was a photo showing demolition of a 'Dewey Square' Station. Where, if at all, does that former station fit into this whole mix?
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Postby Gerry6309 » Tue May 20, 2008 11:48 am

There was no Dewey Sq. Station. The section of tunnel removed in the 1950s for the Artery Tunnel was the upper level of the Red Line tunnel between Atlantic Av. and Purchase St. The Artery Tunnel at that point was known as the Dewey Sq. Tunnel, with three lanes in each direction. Today it is two lanes south, 3 lanes south and one lane north (on ramp).
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The next stop is Washington. Change for Forest Hills Trains on the Winter St. Platform, and Everett Trains on the Summer St. Platform. This is an Ashmont train, change for Braintree at Columbia.
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Postby StevieC48 » Tue May 20, 2008 12:19 pm

Didn't Metropolitan Hobbies have his 1st store in the concorse befor he moved to Westrn Ave??
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Postby BigUglyCat » Tue May 20, 2008 12:53 pm

Gerry6309 wrote:There was no Dewey Sq. Station. The section of tunnel removed in the 1950s for the Artery Tunnel was the upper level of the Red Line tunnel between Atlantic Av. and Purchase St. The Artery Tunnel at that point was known as the Dewey Sq. Tunnel, with three lanes in each direction. Today it is two lanes south, 3 lanes south and one lane north (on ramp).


I know you're super knowledgeable but have you seen the picture in the book? There are exposed pillars and what looks like a hunk of platform. I don't have the book handy but I could swear it mentioned a Dewey Square Station. I didn't think I had ever heard of one. Perhaps Mr. Tsipis was misquoted.
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Postby 3rdrail » Tue May 20, 2008 2:00 pm

Sounds to me like a misunderstanding in terms. There have been above-ground stops/stations at Dewey Square, which is located at the intersection of Atlantic Ave - Summer and Federal Streets. They're generally not referred to as "Dewey Square". Typically, "South Station" is the name applied to these stops in Dewey Square, with "Dewey Square" in some cases being the more precise location of the stop, albeit "South Station" being the more recognizable landmark. Prior to "South Union Station's" construction in 1899, "Dewey Square" might have been an above-ground trolley destination. As far as underground is concerned, to my knowledge, there is, and has been only one - "South Station" on the Cambridge-Dorchester or "Red" Line, whichever you prefer, (unless you count the lower level, underground South Station Loop.)
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Postby Gerry6309 » Tue May 20, 2008 2:48 pm

The upper tunnel may have had various elements which looked like a station structure. There was also an underground loop at South Station (NHRR) - long abandoned.
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The next stop is Washington. Change for Forest Hills Trains on the Winter St. Platform, and Everett Trains on the Summer St. Platform. This is an Ashmont train, change for Braintree at Columbia.
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Postby BigUglyCat » Tue May 20, 2008 6:47 pm

Gerry6309 wrote:The upper tunnel may have had various elements which looked like a station structure. There was also an underground loop at South Station (NHRR) - long abandoned.


Might as well finish this one off. If any of you have the book I mentioned above or have access to it, see page 96, top, for a most interesting photo. Here is the caption: "DEMOLITION OF THE OLD DEWEY SQUARE MTA CAMBRIDGE-DORCHESTER RAPID TRANSIT STATION LOBBY, FEBRUARY 1957...The Dewey Square station was relocated closer to South Station. (Courtesy Peter Vanderwarker and CA/T Archives.)"

Maybe it's the 'lobby' business here that's confusing me.
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Postby 3rdrail » Tue May 20, 2008 6:53 pm

If that caption is written exactly as you have presented it, I stand by the opinion that it is a factual error or poorly worded. It strikes me also, that the problem may have resulted in the awkwardness of writing the "South Station station". As such, for the novice, it might be taken to mean South Station (the RR terminal) as opposed to South Station (the rapid transit station). By writing it as the "Dewey Square station", perhaps the author felt that he was conveying the actual station which he intended in a more understandable manner. He probably should have written it as the "MTA's South Station Rapid Transit station". As far as the "demolition" that the author references, aside from what Gerry has already explained, I have no idea what the author is talking about. Anyway, here's a copy of a 1912 BERy schematic drawing of the Dorchester Tunnel through Dewey Square which clearly shows it's current "South Station" rapid transit station alignment directly at South Union Station, as well as a photo of my 1928 Cambridge-Dorchester Line sign carried inside one of the old cars.
Image
Image
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Postby Gerry6309 » Tue May 20, 2008 9:27 pm

Knowing that the upper level of the existing lobby does cross Atlantic Av, and that this passageway existed in some form prior to the most recent rebuild, it is conceivable that the highest level may have at one time extended to Purchase St. The old Boston Transit Commission reports should have the info. In no way was there a separate station though.
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The next stop is Washington. Change for Forest Hills Trains on the Winter St. Platform, and Everett Trains on the Summer St. Platform. This is an Ashmont train, change for Braintree at Columbia.
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Postby BigUglyCat » Wed May 21, 2008 6:31 am

Gerry6309 wrote:Knowing that the upper level of the existing lobby does cross Atlantic Av, and that this passageway existed in some form prior to the most recent rebuild, it is conceivable that the highest level may have at one time extended to Purchase St. The old Boston Transit Commission reports should have the info. In no way was there a separate station though.


Thanks, gents, I appreciate the discussion. So much for the fabled Dewey Square station. I wonder if the author didn't pick up the erroneous info from the photo. Ah, well. :P
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