Winter St Concourse

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Winter St Concourse

Postby FP10 » Sun May 18, 2008 5:51 pm

I remember reading this was built as a trolley tunnel. Was it ever used? What were the plans for track connections? Also, does (did) it extend all the way to South Station, and did the SL destroy all of that?
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Postby maxman927 » Sun May 18, 2008 6:15 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Street_Concourse

says that is was built in 1915 but not opened for pedestrians until 1978. before it was used for offices and storage.
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Postby Austin018 » Sun May 18, 2008 7:30 pm

yes, it used to extand all the way to at least South Station. I know the Dewey Square tunnel construction in 1955 destroyed some of the tunnel and I think the silver line also removed even more of it.
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Postby firepug » Sun May 18, 2008 8:24 pm

It was built as a second transit tunnel but was found to be too low for use, so was instead used for offices. I find it slightly ironic that there is a tunnel of sorts all the way from Boylston to South Station. Hopefully no one will tell the FTA when they apply for SL funding...!

It is cut by the Orange Line, a highway (apparently, see below), the Silver Line and a substation.

From http://world.nycsubway.org/us/boston/red.html :
From here to South Station the "tunnel" is a double deck cut & cover subway on a descending grade. The upper deck is transected at Washington St. by the Orange Line's platforms and tracks.and lies about 20 feet deeper below the surface by the time South Station is reached.

Leaving Washington the tunnel follows Summer St. along a gentle reverse curve to South Station Under, curving first to the east and then to the southeast. There is no center wall between the stations. The concourse continues above, ending at Purchase St. where a highway tunnel built in the 1960s interrupts it. East of the highway the concourse has recently been replaced by a new bus tunnel and station serving the Silver Line and scheduled to open at the end of 2004. An abandoned electrical substation occupies the final segment of the concourse, which was by now over 25 feet high
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Postby Gerry6309 » Sun May 18, 2008 9:23 pm

The section east of DTX has traditionally been the system's turnstyle repair shop. There is no evidence that the upper level was ever intended as a transit ROW.
Gerry. STM/BSRA

The next stop is Washington. Change for Forest Hills Trains on the Winter St. Platform, and Everett Trains on the Summer St. Platform. This is an Ashmont train, change for Braintree at Columbia.
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Postby firepug » Sun May 18, 2008 10:24 pm

I stand somewhat corrected...

http://members.aol.com/eddanamta/abando ... nstas.html :
When the Red Line was extended from Park to South Station in 1915-16, the new tunnel featured two levels. The bottom featured tracks for Rapid Transit trains, the top was intended for possible future undetermined use as pedestrian passageways and/or use by surface streetcars. As ultimately built, this upper level could not accommodate rail vehicles, only pedestrians. The top level in the Washington Street Station area became a concourse providing direct entrances to the Filene's (1912) and Jordan Marsh (1930 & 1951) department stores. Part of the top level near Dewey Square was demolished when the Dewey Square Automobile tunnel was built in 1955. In January, 1979, the section between Park Street and Washington was opened as a pedestrian passageway. The portion between Washington (now Downtown Crossing) and Dewey Square has never been opened as a public area, and is presently used by the MBTA's Revenue Department as a turnstile repair shop.
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Postby vanshnookenraggen » Sun May 18, 2008 11:26 pm

I never understood the reasoning behind a trolley tunnel at the same grade as two station platforms. But since they were digging the Red Line tunnel, why not keep the space? Good idea in the long run.
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Postby FP10 » Mon May 19, 2008 6:57 am

In order to build new northbound lanes for I-93 underground, it was necessary to tunnel under the Red Line at a depth of about 100 feet. This was done as a cut & cover operation beneath a decked over Atlantic Av, After the highway tunnel was complete, a second tunnel and station was constructed above it for the Silver Line including a loop under Dewey Sq.


So it sounds like the SL loop did away with whatever was demolished in the 50s for the highway, as it now goes under the red line instead of above. One has to wonder if this could be reused as it was originally intended, but as a SL extension. It would be a lot of work, but it seems that rerouting some pedestrian facilities is a A LOT easier than digging a new tunnel 4 stories down.
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Postby FP10 » Mon May 19, 2008 6:59 am

vanshnookenraggen wrote:I never understood the reasoning behind a trolley tunnel at the same grade as two station platforms. But since they were digging the Red Line tunnel, why not keep the space? Good idea in the long run.



Yeah. Intelligent design. In boston. Who woulda thought?
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Postby Arborway » Mon May 19, 2008 12:24 pm

vanshnookenraggen wrote:I never understood the reasoning behind a trolley tunnel at the same grade as two station platforms. But since they were digging the Red Line tunnel, why not keep the space? Good idea in the long run.


Every time I walk through it I think to myself "What made this seem like a good idea?" but the unintended benefit is well worth it, and much appreciated.

I love directing tourists on the Green Line (especially at Park St.) to the Concourse when they're looking to get to DTX. It blows their minds. They absolutely love it.
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Postby Ron Newman » Mon May 19, 2008 1:25 pm

So it sounds like the SL loop did away with whatever was demolished in the 50s for the highway, as it now goes under the red line instead of above


What? The Silver Line level is above the Red Line level at South Station.
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Postby Ron Newman » Mon May 19, 2008 1:35 pm

The section of this tunnel between Washington and Chauncy streets is currently an unpaid area, with Charlie gates at either end. Was it ever a paid area?
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Postby Disney Guy » Mon May 19, 2008 2:12 pm

I recall it as a paid area back in the 1960's. To get to Filene's or Macy's (Jordan's) basements you went through floor to ceiling exit turnstiles a few feet from the glass doors to the respective stores. The person closing the store each night was supposed to chain the turnstiles as well. At the Chauncy St. end there was a collector and a set of turnstiles at a stairway going up to the street. At the Washington St. end the entrance turnstiles were clustered around the stairs as opposed to being in front of the track. There was an iron maiden turnstile that admitted people from Macy's and often I would see two youngsters squeeze in to be admitted for one token since there was no provision for children's fares.

Because of the Downtown Crossing station and thus slower operating speeds, I did not think that an at grade crossing between the Orange Line and a possible rail line using the Park St to So. Station upper tunnel would have been particularly hazardous.
Last edited by Disney Guy on Mon May 19, 2008 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ron Newman » Mon May 19, 2008 2:17 pm

Up until Filene's Basement closed last year, at least one of their exit doors still had an official-looking MBTA station sign that said "WASHINGTON" instead of "DOWNTOWN CROSSING".
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Postby FP10 » Mon May 19, 2008 3:12 pm

Ron Newman wrote:What? The Silver Line level is above the Red Line level at South Station.


I meant that the highway now goes under both the Silver Line and Red Line, whereas before it went above the Red Line and through the Summer St tunnel
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