Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

Moderators: CRail, sery2831

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby dbperry » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:05 am

Komarovsky wrote:The big question mark so far(at least for me) has been; is this a workmanship issue, an issue with the truck manufacturer's design or an issue with Hyundai's design. If it's the first then Hyundai is only minimally responsible for the issues, the second they're far more responsible but not 100%, and obviously if it's the latter they might as well close up shop.


Agree. Interesting that it's hard to tie it back to our common complaint of "poor investment in infrastructure" or deferred maintenance or deferred capital spending or some other systemic problem with rail transit systems.

Others have suggested part of the SEPTA - ROTEM root cause is the "buy american" mandate - locking us out of worldwide manufacturing industry with longer track record. I'm not sure about that in this case - the FRA requirements may have forced a foreign factory into a different design than they usually use, so who knows how that would play out.

Another item to add to your list is QC/QA (Quality Control / Quality Assurance). Who was responsible for what element of making sure things got done right? And what should the QC have looked like? What role should SEPTA have had in that process? Should some of the welds have been spot checked by xray or some other method? Were they?
Known to Keolis and the MBTA as "Twitter Dave"
Frequently posting about the MBTA Framingham-Worcester line on Twitter: https://twitter.com/FramWorMBTA
Owner of Framingham-Worcester Blog: http://FramWorMBTA.weebly.com/
Maintainer of MBTA schedule archive: http://www.dbperry.net/MBTA/
User avatar
dbperry
 
Posts: 793
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:28 pm
Location: Suburbs of Boston

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby dbperry » Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:37 pm

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/0 ... story.html

Philadelphia transit system woes prompt MBTA inspections

...The MBTA purchased 75 Hyundai Rotem commuter rail coaches in 2008 for $190 million, but Pesaturo said they do not include the “equalizer beam” that is being inspected for cracks in Philadelphia.

“Nonetheless, out of an abundance of caution, the MBTA is performing truck inspections on two of the older coaches in the fleet to ensure there are no issues,” he wrote.

The older coaches were chosen for inspection because they have been used the most, according to the T...
Known to Keolis and the MBTA as "Twitter Dave"
Frequently posting about the MBTA Framingham-Worcester line on Twitter: https://twitter.com/FramWorMBTA
Owner of Framingham-Worcester Blog: http://FramWorMBTA.weebly.com/
Maintainer of MBTA schedule archive: http://www.dbperry.net/MBTA/
User avatar
dbperry
 
Posts: 793
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:28 pm
Location: Suburbs of Boston

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby MBTA F40PH-2C 1050 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:29 pm

My experience with them, and I'm sure some of my fellow workers can chime in if they choose, is that they are cheaply put together with cheap parts....door locks broken, HVAC problems/faults constantly, shaking vibrations, an annoying air brake system on them makes it close to impossible to run a smooth train running from the control car, door latches breaking off, etc. Cheap cheap cars
MBTA F40PH-2C 1050
 
Posts: 3498
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:57 pm

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby eubnesby » Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:33 pm

The thing I've always noticed about them is the dumb screens on the sides and inside of the cars, which never show anything other than a T logo, if they are not instead showing a scrambled mess.
eubnesby
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:40 pm

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:44 pm

That is explainable if the cab car isn't also a Rotem. The ASA computer lives in the cab, so any K-car, MBB, or Bombardier cab isn't equipped yet to run the displays and auto-announcements in the trailers. That'll change when all the K-car cabs are back from rebuild installed with the same computers, knocking out the last MBB's and leaving only the Bomber 1600's incapable (for now) of powering the announcements.

Of course...the ASA computers in the 1800's have had plenty of glitches mangling the announcements, so if that's still persisting it won't make any difference if there are more ASA-equipped cabs coming online. If the software is junk, it's not going to work right in any car.
F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Posts: 7252
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:26 pm
Location: North Cambridge

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby NH2060 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:09 pm

dbperry wrote:Others have suggested part of the SEPTA - ROTEM root cause is the "buy american" mandate - locking us out of worldwide manufacturing industry with longer track record. I'm not sure about that in this case - the FRA requirements may have forced a foreign factory into a different design than they usually use, so who knows how that would play out.

Kawasaki -a company with a facility and offices in the U.S.- had built every single bilevel coach up until that point so there would appear to be absolutely no reason whatsoever for the T to not stick with the same old thing.
NH2060
 
Posts: 1443
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:44 pm

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby BandA » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:27 pm

What are the option prices of the Rotems vs likely prices for Kawasaki?
User avatar
BandA
 
Posts: 1901
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:47 am

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby Backshophoss » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:38 pm

Kawasaki at Lincoln Ne is booked solid,with DC Metro's 7K cars and NY MTA M-9/9A MU cars for production runs
They would need to dust off and update the "K car" design,and possibly get asked about dusting off and update
the LIRR "C-3" design of a "C-5" production run for LIRR and MN.
Backshophoss
 
Posts: 4637
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:10 am

Not gonna be a C3 design update from them. Metro North did all of its clearance testing for Park Ave. tunnel and GCT with borrowed Bombardier MLV's. That's the form factor the MTA is speccing in its fleet plan, be it the actual BBD product or a clone in the same carbody dimensions. C3's are more like shrunken K-cars in design than an MLV and wouldn't absolute-100% match the clearance specs they tested to.


If Kawasaki were to get approached about ripping out another coach order the only real factory capacity issue they've got are juggling those MU orders. The MTA coach order is still at least 2 years from being RFP'd. Maybe it would be more worth their while if the T sized up their interest in just doing a round of 100 trailers...no cab cars...to knock out the Bombardier 300's and 600's. And just a straight rip off the 900-series template with none of the Rotem or 700-series rehab customizations except for the ASA screens. Then have the T yank 15 of the cab-deactivated BBD 1600's for a mini-CRASP program that reactivates their controls and extends their reliable lifespan another 8 years or so for those cab replacements to get lumped in with the subsequent Pullman-replacement order. If Kawasaki has a lot of balls to juggle with ongoing domestic orders, they'd be most likely to listen if it was a straight-up "do exactly what you did last time" sales pitch instead of "Oh, and we've changed this...and this...and this...and we're thinking of changing this because reasons...and of course the outside project consultants we don't closely supervise will weigh in with their change orders. . ." That's just going to get them to roll their eyes and lose all interest.
F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Posts: 7252
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:26 pm
Location: North Cambridge

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby Trinnau » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:58 am

The problem isn't really price - they're probably going to pay around $2.5 million per car no matter who makes them (the Rotem order was about $2.2 million). The problem is time and the bid process - remember MBTA can't just go to a manufacturer like Kawasaki and say "I want that car" because they are a public entity. If the MBTA exercised the Rotem options as they are currently considering, there is no need to write a specification and go out to bid. Rotem was already awarded a contract through the bid process and has the specifications - with all the modifications made and lessons learned through break-in. These option cars are already written into the contract. Cheap construction or not, it is the fastest way to replace the aging single-level fleet. If the green light was given today we'd probably see the first new cars start showing up in about 3 years and the order complete in another 2 years or so depending on how many coaches they purchase. It also is the best way to standardize maintenance, as you are buying something you already are stocking spare parts for.

If the MBTA decides against the option, they then need to get a new specification written up - which should be a quick update to the Rotem spec - put out to bid and awarded. No guarantee on who wins that - it could be Kawasaki, Rotem or a completely new model from a completely different manufacturer. Then if there's a lawsuit holding up the award or anything else that could delay the process you're looking at adding roughly another 2 years so we won't see the first cars for at least 5 years. This also leaves the possibility that there could be a completely new car built for the MBTA even if built by Kawasaki or Rotem. Which means another set of spare parts and another lengthy break-in/shakedown process along with a maintenance learning curve.
Trinnau
 
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:27 pm

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby nomis » Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:53 am

I'd say the quickest way to get a new bi-level car on the property is to use a design that is currently slated for production (for SEPTA no less), the Bombardier MLV. Recent runs, as in this decade ;-), have been shipped to NJT and MARC.
Moderator: Metro-North (with CDOT), Photography & Video

Avatar: An overnight trip on Girard Ave. stumbles upon 6 PCC's and an LRV stuck within two blocks.
User avatar
nomis
 
Posts: 2025
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:52 pm
Location: MRS 43 (was QA 9 & QB 2)

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby BandA » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:26 am

So a bi-level coach is roughly half the cost of a Nippon-Sharyo Marin County DMU? And about 2/3 the cost of a Type-9 GLX Frankentrolley.

There are ways to manipulate the bid specification to get the vendor you want - Use the preferred vendor's specification as your bid specification: "Must have trucks interchangeable with Kawasaki "K-Car" " or "...with Rotem Car"

If the Rotem cars are barely good for 15 years, with low MTBF and high maintenance costs, while the Kawasaki will still be going strong at 25 years, then the choice is obvious. If Rotem's design is good, have comfortable ride, and the recent units are of high quality even though the first ones weren't, then take a flyer on them.
User avatar
BandA
 
Posts: 1901
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:47 am

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:10 pm

Trip report from Middleboro outbound #019 yesterday:

Boarded 905 at Quincy Center for one of the retractable seats in the vestibule end. Full-blast A/C in the K-car was absolutely heavenly after an afternoon outside earning self a moderate sunburn. Youngish conductor enters from adjacent 1815 between QC and Holbrook/Randolph covered head-to-toe in sweat...like, shirt-ruining sweat. One of the regulars asked him what happened, and he says he'd just spent 5 minutes in the sauna-like cab checking on an A/C crap-out barely out of South Station. Seating area temps were neither too bad nor too comfortable but starting to re-normalize with intermittent fan action, so car wouldn't need to be isolated. But the cab was a lost cause. One of the regulars asked if they'd be able to run the return trip at all. He said yeah, but the engineer will probably put on an impressive display of profanities when told about it and that they'd probably run windows cracked open and let the evening cool-down keep it suitable enough for human occupation. Somebody else asked "Does he know he's just going to get covered in gypsy moths because of the infestation?"

[*laughing*] "Why do you think he'll be swearing when I break the news!"

Somebody else exclaimed, "Boy those new cars are still pieces of @#$%, huh?"

[*leaning back with towel covering his face*] "Oh, you have no idea...you have no frigging idea."
F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Posts: 7252
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:26 pm
Location: North Cambridge

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby dbperry » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:13 am

Coach 835 joins the "Rotem shake" club with 2 different separate reports:

https://twitter.com/MunkinArts/status/7 ... 9793465345

https://twitter.com/the_eskimo_spy/stat ... 5356215296
Known to Keolis and the MBTA as "Twitter Dave"
Frequently posting about the MBTA Framingham-Worcester line on Twitter: https://twitter.com/FramWorMBTA
Owner of Framingham-Worcester Blog: http://FramWorMBTA.weebly.com/
Maintainer of MBTA schedule archive: http://www.dbperry.net/MBTA/
User avatar
dbperry
 
Posts: 793
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:28 pm
Location: Suburbs of Boston

Re: Rotem Cars Discussion (new bi-level cars)

Postby trainbrain » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:17 pm

Do the Rotem cars have manual doors like the rest of the fleet has? If they have automatic doors, will the Kawasaki cars get them during the rebuild?
trainbrain
 
Posts: 290
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 7:11 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests