01700 UTDC Midlife Rebuild

Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

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Postby Gerry6309 » Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:07 pm

Epsilon wrote:I wonder if the 01700s will get electronic rollsigns... the types of electronic signs that the T has used on the 01800s and the Green Line don't look like they'd fit in the small red line rollsign spot, though.

You could mount something over the opening outside the body on the ends and possibly the sides though. The clearances on the line are generous, and the signs are quite thin now.
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Postby octr202 » Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:57 pm

They might not be snazzy enough for everyone today, but the rollsigns seem to often be a far better indicator of a southbound train's destination than the LCD signs on the 01800s. Hopefully the "leave well enough alone" instinct will pull through.
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Postby redline43 » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:45 am

My choice would be improved electric rollsigns, like the unmodified Type 7s. With a few more descriptive destinations thrown in (i.e. Express to Harvard, Express to Alewife).
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Postby Robert Paniagua » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:21 pm

Gerry6309 wrote:
01800s have dynamic braking


Actually 1500s, 1600s and 1700s have dynamic braking, 1800s have regenerative braking. The difference is that the current generated by the motors in the 1800s is pumped back into the third rail to be used elsewhere, while the current generated in the other cars is dissapated in resistors under the car. The two systems are operationally compatible. The differences lie in the control system, braking rates in the older cars are varied by changing the bias on the limit relay, which is controlled by the voltage on a train line wire. (Commonly these are 1 Power, 2 Accellerate, 3 Parrallel, 4 Forward, 5 Reverse, 6 Rate, 7 Reset - Hence the control cut-out is called a 7 point switch) In the 1800s the braking (all modes) are controlled by a digital signal - also carried on a train line wire. The two control systems are totally incompatible! The 1800s dont respond to simple on-offs or varying voltages and the other cars are ANALOG period! The 01800s may have air pressure carried through coupler hoses, but they don't respond to changes in pressure through relay valves. The braking is controlled through the P-wire only. BTW: SMEE doesn't require dynamic braking, the 1924 East Boston cars were converted to SMEE braking, but used air brakes only. SMEE stands for: Straight air, Motorman's valve, Electric control with Emergency features. The electric portion essentially measures the air pressure on the first car and matches it on the others.

The technology used in the older cars is fairly old, though low voltage circuitry and variable rates have been added since the early days of MU around 1900. Dynamic braking is triggered by loss of the power signal, and brake and accelleration rates increase as voltage on the rate wire drops. In coasting the rate is minimized, so the control follows the speed of the car. The ATO on the Red and Orange Lines simply turns these signals on and off based on the speed of the car. That's why the application is so heavy when the cars go from a 40 code to a 25 code and so forth.

To return to the original subject, the Type 7s and 8s both used similar digital control systems, so the main issue in making them compatible was adjusting rates to match and adding some multiplexed signals for the signs and ASA system to the Type 7. The AC or DC motors are operationally compatible, just don't try to put a Type 8 motor under a Type 7.


Oops, I got consfused ther, you're right 01400s, the old predecessor 06/700s had the SMEE braking, as well as the Toronto's TTC Gloucesters and their Montrealer M1s, in addition to the 1500s, 1600s and 1700s, the TTC H1, H2, H4, H5 and H6 also have dynamic braking, while their T1s, Scarborough RT ICTS and our 01800s have regenerative braking.

Also, I hope and wonder if Alstom will get to overhaul the 01700s, like WMATA and Chicago's Rapid Transit Cars, since they are good at rehabbing, hopefully they'll get the 01700s rebuild, unlike having it done here at Cabot with the 015-600s and 01400s from 1979-1987.
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The track record for these companies

Postby tommyboy6181 » Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:51 am

Breda track record:
= Rehabbed the original Rohr cars for Washington in the mid 1990's, now the most reliable in the fleet
= Built cars for Atlanta, Washington, Los Angeles and Cleveland, among most reliable for those cities
= We all know about the Type 8 problems they had in Boston
= Now rehabbing 27 LRV cars for Buffalo, NY. This project will rebuild the car bodies, install new interiors, video monitoring, new train monitoring systems (similar to the MTA in NYC), install new ASA and new LED signs, rebuild the HVAC systems and also keep the DC motors for those cars (but will add a new microprocessor system similar to what Alstom did for the Chicago rehabs to make them much more reliable). We shall see how those turn out.

Bombardier track record:
= Rehabbed the original Rohr cars for the BART system and have been performing extremely well
= Built many many cars for the MTA in NYC and have been performing well
= BBD Mitrac Propulsion in new CAF cars for Washington had problems

Alstom...here is their track record on rehabs in the US.
= Chicago: Finished project 1 year early even with option cars added, incorporated the ONIX propulsion system but did leave the original DC motors. Much better reliability since cars will not stall out as much in the past when motors would get wet
= Atlanta: Still in progress but on schedule. Cars have been running very well since the rehab. Bombardier/AdTranz model 1508 propulsion motors that have not been made in a few years were used for these cars to match the Breda fleet that uses them intead of their ONIX system.
= Washington: Behind in schedule by almost 3 years in Washington due to lots of problems. There have been problems with the ONIX propulsion system, equipment issues, and lots of field mods that still need to be finished. Although, I will say that the rehabs have been nice to ride in when I have ridden in those. Also have been having lots of problems with the new 6000 series cars since starting to run those. The latest issue is a bracket that needs to be redesigned since it keeps falling off.
= Alstom getting another option from the MTA to build an additional 300+ cars in addition to the over 1,000 they are currently building along with the remaining portion of the 182 car order from Washington and all the other projects makes me think a huge backup could happen.

I guess the big thing is that every company has its screw up. The way to combat that is to have good engineering actually make good decisions and not fast track anything. Testing on a few cars to determine problems early is a great thing and ultimately will give a better product back in the end.
Gotta love Alstom. Every year on opening day of hunting season, it is a paid holiday! :wink:
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Postby StevieC48 » Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:45 am

Just rember it's lowest bidder on the contract that wins not reputation. :wink:
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Postby Gerry6309 » Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:06 pm

Oops, I got consfused ther, you're right 01400s, the old predecessor 06/700s had the SMEE braking


01400s were SMEE. 0600 to 0754 were AMLE (Automatic Air with Motorman's Valve, Type "L" Triple Valve and Electric Control). An interesting feature of the system was that the electric portion dumped the air from the brake pipe directly into the cylinder, rather than into the atmosphere, speeding the application. Placing the motorman's valve in electric lap recharged the brake pipe, but held the air in the cylinder. Moving the handle to release opened the release valves, allowing the brakes to release partially or fully, depending on how long the handle was left there. If the brake fuse blew, you could use pneumatic apply, about 45 degrees away from electric apply. There was no graduated release at that point, any rise in brake pipe pressure put the triple valves in release. Cambridge Tunnel Cars used battery power for brake control. Elevated (Orange Line) cars used the same system but powered from the third rail. If the first car of a train passed over a gap with the brakes in electric lap, the brakes would release!
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Postby Robert Paniagua » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:11 pm

Epsilon wrote:I wonder if the 01700s will get electronic rollsigns... the types of electronic signs that the T has used on the 01800s and the Green Line don't look like they'd fit in the small red line rollsign spot, though.


Yeah I agree. They should be completely converted while MLO'd so that they can trainline with the #3 Red Line Units (01800s) and also have improved CTA-style ASA. Plus this would allow for the 015/1600s to be retired since after mid life overhaul, the 01700s would no longer be able to trainline with the Silverbirds.
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Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:43 pm

Gerry6309 wrote:
Epsilon wrote:I wonder if the 01700s will get electronic rollsigns... the types of electronic signs that the T has used on the 01800s and the Green Line don't look like they'd fit in the small red line rollsign spot, though.

You could mount something over the opening outside the body on the ends and possibly the sides though. The clearances on the line are generous, and the signs are quite thin now.


The LED signs on the new buses are much thinner than even the old rollsign mechanisms, or the LCD signs that require space for the fluorescent backlight. They could easily mount them inside the existing compartments with no trouble whatsoever. Would be a logical thing to do since the cars could use an auto-announcement upgrade for ADA and electronic signs work hand-in-hand with those. Plus I've noticed a lot of the side-mounted and interior rollsigns on the 015/016/017 cars are starting to rip.
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Re: The track record for these companies

Postby diburning » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:15 pm

tommyboy6181 wrote:Breda track record:
= Rehabbed the original Rohr cars for Washington in the mid 1990's, now the most reliable in the fleet
= Built cars for Atlanta, Washington, Los Angeles and Cleveland, among most reliable for those cities
= We all know about the Type 8 problems they had in Boston
= Now rehabbing 27 LRV cars for Buffalo, NY. This project will rebuild the car bodies, install new interiors, video monitoring, new train monitoring systems (similar to the MTA in NYC), install new ASA and new LED signs, rebuild the HVAC systems and also keep the DC motors for those cars (but will add a new microprocessor system similar to what Alstom did for the Chicago rehabs to make them much more reliable). We shall see how those turn out.

Bombardier track record:
= Rehabbed the original Rohr cars for the BART system and have been performing extremely well
= Built many many cars for the MTA in NYC and have been performing well
= BBD Mitrac Propulsion in new CAF cars for Washington had problems

Alstom...here is their track record on rehabs in the US.
= Chicago: Finished project 1 year early even with option cars added, incorporated the ONIX propulsion system but did leave the original DC motors. Much better reliability since cars will not stall out as much in the past when motors would get wet
= Atlanta: Still in progress but on schedule. Cars have been running very well since the rehab. Bombardier/AdTranz model 1508 propulsion motors that have not been made in a few years were used for these cars to match the Breda fleet that uses them intead of their ONIX system.
= Washington: Behind in schedule by almost 3 years in Washington due to lots of problems. There have been problems with the ONIX propulsion system, equipment issues, and lots of field mods that still need to be finished. Although, I will say that the rehabs have been nice to ride in when I have ridden in those. Also have been having lots of problems with the new 6000 series cars since starting to run those. The latest issue is a bracket that needs to be redesigned since it keeps falling off.
= Alstom getting another option from the MTA to build an additional 300+ cars in addition to the over 1,000 they are currently building along with the remaining portion of the 182 car order from Washington and all the other projects makes me think a huge backup could happen.

I guess the big thing is that every company has its screw up. The way to combat that is to have good engineering actually make good decisions and not fast track anything. Testing on a few cars to determine problems early is a great thing and ultimately will give a better product back in the end.


The Washington DC Metro had a ton of derailments with their Breda-made cars.

Don;t forget Boeing. Their LRVs had a ton of problems.
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Postby tommyboy6181 » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:56 pm

The Washington DC Metro had a ton of derailments with their Breda-made cars.


The derailments are happening with the CAF 5000 series cars with 1 of them resulting in the Mt. Vernon Square accident that happened a little over a year ago. The Breda, Rohr and Alstom cars have not had any major problems with that happening.

Boeing, you are right...they had a ton of problems with their LRV's and Breda actually replaced those entirely in San Francisco in the mid 90's.
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Postby sery2831 » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:08 pm

Drifting off topic here...
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RE: Moderator's Note

Postby Robert Paniagua » Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:23 am

sery2831 wrote:Drifting off topic here...


I know, and in fact, I have a WMATA Forum here on RR.net that you guys can discuss WMATA stuff, this thread is about the MBTA 01700s.

John, do you wonder if the 01700s are gonna be repainted silver to look like the 01800s when rebuilt. That would look cool, hopefully, the MBTA will turn to Alstom to rebuild the cars rather then in-house like the 015/16s and 014s.
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Re: RE: Moderator's Note

Postby F-line to Dudley via Park » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:27 am

Robert Paniagua wrote:
sery2831 wrote:Drifting off topic here...


I know, and in fact, I have a WMATA Forum here on RR.net that you guys can discuss WMATA stuff, this thread is about the MBTA 01700s.

John, do you wonder if the 01700s are gonna be repainted silver to look like the 01800s when rebuilt. That would look cool, hopefully, the MBTA will turn to Alstom to rebuild the cars rather then in-house like the 015/16s and 014s.


Unlikely, as long as they still trainline with the 015/016's. A few 016's have gotten fresh paint jobs in the old scheme, so that's probably what'll be done.
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Postby Robert Paniagua » Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:19 pm

Well, they may get a complete retrofit as I stated earlier with AC propulsion, just like the entire CTA rolling stock
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